The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

The word for 'week' is 'sabu', which is derived from 'seba', the word for 'seven'. Its normal plural is feminine in form: 'sebuot'. Only in this chapter of Daniel does it appear in the masculine plural 'sabuim'." "Therefore, it is strongly suggestive of the idea "heptad" (a series or combination of seven), rather than a 'week' in the sense of a series of seven days."

Well, that's different then. You could have said this a few hours ago and saved us some trouble. :-)

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Out of curiosity, I did a little research in order to determine how the two of you could come to different conclusions of St. Cyprian's attitude towards the "Chair of Peter" and equality of the Bishops.

As is not uncommon, it depends on the source.

AC, I suspect you have concentrated on Catholic Apologist sources. I viewed about 1/2 dozen sites and found not one site which will credit the notion that St. Cyprian argued "equality" for the Apostles/Bishops with Peter though they are prepared to argue against it..


TRD, Orthodox sites will indicate St. Cyprian, at a later time, argued for the equality of the Apostles and their successors (Bishops) with Peter. (This appears to be a developed position).
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Note: Who do you trust?

[There are two editions of what follows, the second of which tones down the first in view of Cyprian's argument with the papacy. Papal primacy is clear in the first edition written about 251 A.D., but merely implicit in the second effort written about 255 or 256 A.D.]

First Edition: "And again He says to him [Peter] after His resurrection: 'Feed my sheep' (John 21:17). On him He builds the Church, and to him He gives the command to feed the sheep; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles, yet He founded a single chair, and He established by His own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was; but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that there is but one Church and one chair. So too, all our shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the Apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that his is in the Church?"

Second Edition: "It is on the one man that He builds the Church; and although He assigns a like power to all the Apostles after His resurrection, when He says, 'As the Father has sent me, so also do I send you; receive the Holy Spirit: If you forgive any man his sins, they shall be forgiven; and if you retain any man's sins, they shall be retained" (John 20: 21-23) Nevertheless, in order that unity might be clearly shown, He established by His own authority a source for that unity, which takes its beginning from one man alone. Indeed, the other Apostles were that also which Peter was, being endowed with an equal portion of dignity and power; but the origin is grounded in unity, so that it may be made clear that there is but one Church of Christ. Indeed this oneness of the Church is indicated in the Song of Songs, when the Holy Spirit, speaking in the Lord's name, says, 'One is my dove, my perfect one, to her mother the only one, the chosen of her that bore her." If someone does not hold fast to this unity of the Church, can he imagine that he holds the faith? If he resists and withstands the Church, can he still be confident that he is in the Church, when the blessed Apostle Paul teaches this very thing and displays the sacred sign of unity when he says: 'One body and one spirit, one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one Baptism, one God' (Eph 4:4-6). [5] Let no one mislead the brotherhood with a lie, let no one corrupt the faith by a faithless perversion of the truth. The episcopate is one, of which each bishop holds his part within the undivided structure. The Church also is one, however widely she has spread among the multitude through her fruitful increase. . . . The Church is bathed in the light of the Lord , and pours her rays over the whole world; but it is one light that is spread everywhrere , and the unity of her structure is undivided."

Obviously, St. Cyprian didn't write two different versions. Which is correct?

Here
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Another Interesting Site

IOW We will not know the truth from written history.

[JohnnyM]

hehe.

JM

[SoothingDave]

All Catholic bashers should be thrilled to see them allowing their Church to crumble as we all watch on, but I love all Catholics, and will rejoice when I see them take the bull by the horns, and do what is best for the sheep.

Can you picture a herd of innocent sheep that have complete trust in their shepherd, finally finding out that he is the predator, and not the wolf they have hear baying in the distance.

I have never jumped on the RC's about this, because I knew it was so embarrassing for them, and I knew they wanted to see it dealt with as much as I did, but I think their own hierarchy may need their support now more then anytime, and by that I mean to let them know you support doing what is necessary to stop the cancer now, before it infects the whole Church.

You speak much wisdom and your concerns are appreciated. The post angelo linked to was an example of the hysteria the left in the Church is in. If the Pope is to do a serious housecleaning and throw out the bums and revamp the seminaries and get rid of the agitator nuns, I say good. Bring it on.

We may lose large numbers of people, even clergy, the liberals wouldbe absolutely aghast but it would be good for the Church.

If it causes certain people to think they know better than the Pope off into schism, so be it. The cost of maintaining a fake unity for the sake of appearances and our involvememnt in social services as the gov't's partner is too much.

Better to force the retirement of the bad apples now and live with a clergy shortage, while restoring the prestige of the job, than to wither away under the plan of the progressives.

SD

[Elsie]

I don't agree with your interpretation of Jewish scripture, and therefore I must be dull-minded and have a veiled heart. Not a very persuasive argument.

Again, argue with Paul, not me. Them's HIS words!

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NIV Matthew 12:37
37.  For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned."

NIV John 2:22
 22.  After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

 

NIV John 4:39-41
 39.  Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did."
 40.  So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days.
 41.  And because of his words many more became believers.

 

NIV John 6:63-64
 63.  The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit  and they are life.
 64.  Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

 

NIV John 6:67-69
 67.  "You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.
 68.  Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
 69.  We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

 

NIV John 7:40-43
 40.  On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet."
 41.  Others said, "He is the Christ."   Still others asked, "How can the Christ come from Galilee?
 42.  Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family  and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?"
 43.  Thus the people were divided because of Jesus.

 

NIV John 12:47-50
 47.  "As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it.
 48.  There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.
 49.  For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.
 50.  I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."

 

 

NIV Acts 13:26-41
 26.  "Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent.
 27.  The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 

 28.  Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed.
 29.  When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.
 30.  But God raised him from the dead,
 31.  and for many days he was seen by those who had traveled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.
 32.  "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
 33.  he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '
 34.  The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in these words: "`I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.'
 35.  So it is stated elsewhere: "`You will not let your Holy One see decay.'
 36.  "For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed.
 37.  But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.
 38.  "Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
 39.  Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
 40.  Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
 41.  "`Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.' "

[OLD REGGIE]

LOL! I guess its been a while since you've been to confession. When I last went to confession several years ago, the priest told me to say an Act of Contrition and then go buy myself an ice cream. Its the "kinder, gentler" RCC today, dontcha know?

Not much more than 50 years ago. That's not so long ago, is it?

[Elsie]

Thank you Elsie. However, please be aware that I have read the Christian scriptures any number of times, and that I own several translations of same. You don't need to quote the whole thing to me online here. ;o)

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I know, but there MAY be other folks just lurking, that would not have the inclination to look it up. Besides, it helps ME to be able to retain things when I do NOT have my computer handy.

[Elsie]

O_R:

Angelo said shootin' (speaking about Monica!)

[al_c]

Simethicone is your friend. (aka Mylicon)

I've been considering buying stock in that company. ;o)

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Hey angelo. Where can I go to read some of what the sages wrote. Is that in the Talmud?

[malakhi]

Again, argue with Paul, not me. Them's HIS words!

I have little use for Paul.

Let me correct that.

I have little no use for Paul.

[al_c]

Now that you mention it...yes. Back at you, al.

Just lobbed it back into your court.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I've been considering buying stock in that company. ;o)

I'm quite positive I own alot of Home Depot.

[al_c]

The good die young. Why couldn't Calvin and Hobbs have suffered the same fate as Peanuts and never gone away?

Unfortunately, young Calvin has been resurrected here in the south on the back windows of all the pickup trucks. He can be seen whizzing on the logos of Chevy, Ford and Dodge ... depending on what model the host truck is. I did see on I liked the other day, though ... Calvin kneeling at the cross. Very nice!

[OLD REGGIE]

Say what? Are you going for Sentence of the Day, cause I think you've won? Using an English dictionary will seriously hamper any real study of the Word? LOL

Young Mr. Pedant; Word (capatilized W) is generally considered to represent Scripture among Bible Reading Christians, particularly when discussing Scripture. Is this a foreign concept to you?

[al_c]

I have never jumped on the RC's about this, because I knew it was so embarrassing for them, and I knew they wanted to see it dealt with as much as I did, but I think their own hierarchy may need their support now more then anytime, and by that I mean to let them know you support doing what is necessary to stop the cancer now, before it infects the whole Church.

Amen to that, brother! And welcome back to the Story.

[Elsie]

There is also the small matter of believing that a man was God incarnate, which most Jews throughout history would find to be contrary to the Law.

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True..... but enough of them believed it to REALLY get something started!!!

(But.. what was IN the 'Law' that precluded this?)

[al_c]

I'm quite positive I own alot of Home Depot.

Ditto, that.

[Elsie]

We believe that we can approach God directly, that we need no mediator between God and us.

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Hey! We agree again!

[saradippity]

Thanks for your kind and true words. I hope you will take the time to write just about the same thing to the RCbishop in the diocese in which you live. I think if all bishops would hear from people who are disturbed or disgusted with what has been occurring Christianity would be well served. Many of them think that this liberal,progressive,worldly approach raises the respect and esteem in which they are held. I bet they would be shaken to hear the truth. In my opinion there is nothing more devastating to a "progressive" then being held in contempt and viewed as pathetic.