The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[trad_anglican]

Were you watching the History channel show about Elizabeth?

That show was a real disappointment. I think she's a fascinating person, but their facts were about what was happening around her during the first episode were so wrong that I gave up on it and didn't watch any more. Think I'll look for a good book to study up on her. I should have known that the "history channel" was a misnomer.

[JohnnyM]

"A whole awfule lot of folks like to make things out of Daniel and the 40 (?) weeks that he prophesies about. None of them consider the weeks to be normal everyday 7 day time periods. They instead reflect different epochs or periods of years or whatever.

I guess since they don't reflect literal weeks the prophesy is not true, eh?"

Those weeks are literal though. The debate is over what the weeks signify, and the general consensus is a period of 7 years. Taking that into account you get an extremely accurate prophecy of Christ, but what about the other prophecy in Daniel. The one that was fulfilled in Daniels lifetime. He had noted through studying the Scripture that the 70 prophecied years of Israel captivity was about to be concluded and he fervently prayed to the Lord concerning this. He obviously understood that the 70 years was literal. So I ask again can you show me one instance in Bible where prophecy concerning a period of time is not literal. Can you show me in the Bible where 40 days and 40 nights is used that is NOT literal?

JM

[JHavard]

So I will include you in on the great search for figurative prophecy. Show me one prophecy where a period of time is used and it is NOT literal. Just one and will concede my argument and forever drop the issue.

I'm curious, the prophecy of Jesus in Mt 12:40 was that he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights, ....do you believe these were literally 24 hour days, totaling 72 hours that he referred to? JH

[Havoc]

Were you watching the History channel show about Elizabeth? Was that what sparked your outcry?

I have recorded a couple of the episodes of it; but, I haven't really sat down and watched it yet. I did see a bit on the early church the other night that mad me want to vomit. As a matter of History, Opinion was given as much weight as fact, So I'm seriously seeing them more as tabloid trash on some issues. I still don't like the way they approach some aspects of archeology and stating assumptions as fact. That has always griped me - And I'm specifically talking about egyptology.

[Joyful Wisdom]

That show was a real disappointment.

I could not sit through it either. My main problem was the way it was presented. I thought the cinamatography (Sp?) (Or whatever you call it) left a lot to be desired. It reminded me of a high school history film

[SoothingDave]

Those weeks are literal though. The debate is over what the weeks signify, and the general consensus is a period of 7 years.

Maybe we are using the language differently. If the weeks were literal, it would indicate to me that they would be "7 day units." That is the literal definition of a "week."

If you can make weeks not be actually 7 days and still maintain that they are literal, then I can surely say that 40 days and 40 nights don't mean actually 40 days and 40 nights and 1000 years doesn't mean actually 1000 years.

So at last we are in agreement.

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Where you been ya old toad? :)

BigMack

[trad_anglican]

Now Can I ask you what makes you think 40 days and 40 nights is figurative or that the 1000 year reign in Revelations is figurative.

I think 40 days and 40 nights does not need to be taken literally any more than seventy times 7 does. 70x7 means lots and lots. 40 days and forty nights means a long time. 1000 years means a really really long time. That is how I am convicted to read scriptures.

To which calendar do you think the 1000 years applies?

[SoothingDave]

That show was a real disappointment.

I could not sit through it either. My main problem was the way it was presented. I thought the cinamatography (Sp?) (Or whatever you call it) left a lot to be desired. It reminded me of a high school history film

I saw, I think episode three the other night. Having no real background in English history I found it somewhat interesting. But now I know better.

Besides I can't see Queen Elizabeth without thinking of Black Adder. "Then we'd go with one of my little friends to the executioners. If I wanted any of my little friends executed, that is."

SD

[JohnnyM]

you would have a minor point, but I do have a literal translation of those 70 weeks that point to Christ. If you say those 70 weeks are figurative, than you should have an idea of what they refer to. Plus those "70" units are a literal 70 units not 55 or 1236 or 34 units. They are 70 weeks. Now you have yet to show me one example of a figurative use of the debated terms.

JM

[trad_anglican]

I could not sit through it either. My main problem was the way it was presented. I thought the cinamatography (Sp?) (Or whatever you call it) left a lot to be desired. It reminded me of a high school history film

Or worse, even. The "recreated" scenes were mostly someone jerking a camera around some people in peiod costumes, though the actress did have a good resemblence to Elizabeth.

[OLD REGGIE]

NCs tend to criticize Catholics for putting priests, Mary, or other saints in between them and Jesus. They say that there is no mediator except Jesus between God and man. Jews take this same logic one step further. We believe that we can approach God directly, that we need no mediator between God and us.

Not quite, angelo. It is the man Jesus who is the mediator between man and god. There is no other mediator.

1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
------------------------------------------------

Jesus also teaches us, all of us, to pray directly to God. No mediator required.

Matthew 6:9
Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my confused, part Unitarian, part Bible Believing Christian, and part Jew, mind I find when I pray spontaneously, it is to God. I generally don't feel the need to pray to Jesus as the mediator. (I must qualify this because I have also prayed to Jesus).

Oh well, I don't deny the Trinity, I just don't contemplate it.

I fully expect the NC's and RC's will condemn my belief/unbelief equally.

[Joyful Wisdom]

You mean Black Adder is not real history?

[SoothingDave]

you would have a minor point, but I do have a literal translation of those 70 weeks that point to Christ. If you say those 70 weeks are figurative, than you should have an idea of what they refer to.

You have a figurative translation of those 70 weeks. A literal translation is that they would be 490 days. You know, 70 weeks. Period.

Plus those "70" units are a literal 70 units not 55 or 1236 or 34 units. They are 70 weeks. Now you have yet to show me one example of a figurative use of the debated terms.

OK, now you've changed the argument. You admit that a temporal word can be used outside of its normal, literal meaning. "70 weeks" is now "70 units of time." This is not literal. This is an interpretation.

Likewise, 40 days and 40 nights is an example of temporal words being used that do not necessarily mean their literal time period. It doesn't mean literally "40 days" but rather 40 "units" where each unit is defined as 1/40th of the actual amount of time being discussed. Ta Da!

SD

[SoothingDave]

You mean Black Adder is not real history?

It certainly is my only formal introduction to English history.

SD

[JohnnyM]

You still haven't answered my question: Show me one case in the Bible where 40 days and 40 nights is used figuratively. Show me one case in the Bible where years are used in a prophecy and they are figurative. Just one. It shouldn't be too hard.

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

You are forgiven, my son. Now go say 5 of those speed talk "Hail Marys". ;o)

No sooner asked than
tick-tick-tick-tick-tick,
tick-tick-tick-tick-tick,
tick-tick-tick-tick-tick,
tick-tick-tick-tick-tick,
tick-tick-tick-tick-tick,
done!

Whew! I'm happy I didn't have to do five decades.

[JohnnyM]

"To which calendar do you think the 1000 years applies?" I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. I personally think it applies to the definition of a year used in the Bible which is a 360 day year (12 months at 30 days each).

Now on what basis do you determine that the 40 days and 40 nights of Jesus's temptation was not literal???

JM

[SoothingDave]

You still haven't answered my question: Show me one case in the Bible where 40 days and 40 nights is used figuratively.

Ahem. Show me one case in which it is used literally. We are discussing differences in interpretation. Your built in bias towards literalness does not put me on the defensive. I can use my built in bias to understanding this idiomatically and turn the question around.

Show me one case in the Bible where years are used in a prophecy and they are figurative. Just one. It shouldn't be too hard.

Boy, your question has changed. In post 31600, you said "But all prophecy where time periods are used are literal." It has been shown that the weeks in Daniel are not literal weeks.

Yet you continue to press the same point. I have already shown that names for time periods are used in a non literal manner.

SD

[JohnnyM]

obviously you have avoided the question because you can't answer it. Let me word it another way. Why then do you believe 40 days and 40 nights is figurative??

JM