Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
I knew the Scriptures were the Word of God, not by extensive research and comparison, but by how the words spoke to my soul.
Intellectualism has its place. It is not "intrinsically evil", to borrow a phrase from a recent discussion on this thread. God expects us to use the brains that He gave us. But if we are not careful, we could intellectualize ourselves, or others, right into Hell. There comes a time when we need to stop trying to verify and corroborate facts and just believe.
That's an interesting way to put it. Tell me, who/what "scholar/s" did you quote it from? BTW did the discussion about Pope John VIII and Photius ever go anywhere? (I'm sorry I haven't been able to follow the thread this weekend, but I was interested in it)
More than fact knowing, yes, and you then talk of something more than historical knowing:
It is only when you place yourself on the life preserver, in the faith that it will do what you intellectually know it can do, that your life will be saved.
Perhaps you mean something more than knowing by saying "place yourself"? I think you mean "trust." You are saying trust this set historical facts, trust them with your ultimate fate. But on what basis is that decision to trust based? Is it also a reasoned mental choice?
There comes a time when you need to stop the endless questioning and wondering and just believe.
Ah, but you know me, not stopping the questions just yet. :)
…just believe.
Why? Why choose to believe this set of historical facts (we haven't explored them fully yet, maybe later). On what basis or criteria can we "believe on Christ"? If it is a choice to believe, why choose it?
I wasn't sure I was going to Heaven, but that I wanted to know.
Is this a version of the oft mis-used Pascal's wager? Is "believing on Christ" necessarily a choice made, in order to gain a reward? If the gain were removed, is there no other criteria or basis on which we "just believe"? Would we not believe on Christ if we are punished for it?
I am skipping over some parts of your reply that point in a different direction because you come back again to this place:
But if we are not careful, we could intellectualize ourselves, or others, right into Hell. There comes a time when we need to stop trying to verify and corroborate facts and just believe.
Are these the only possible alternatives:
1) Factual/historical verification/intellectualization that is inconclusive or ultimately ineffective; versus
2) A decision based on avoiding punishment and gaining reward?
In my view, you have answered this, but it is hidden and obscured and so, to me, it seems not yet fully realized, or maybe it is a difference between some people. So I keep asking questions; I think they are valuable for us both. It is not, in my opinion, necessarily the same for all. We are, after all, discussing something that neither of us has the finally authority over.
thank you very much for your reply.
I am the one to ultimately, actually DO the choosing, no matter how infallible the information I receive from the Holy Spirit, or how deceiving the lies from Hell.
I know that if I do sin, I have an advocate with the Father!
You guys DO have the mechanism - throw out the OFFENDERS, not move the ones who are right!
Just a quick comment, then I'm outta here! (I'm Donut Boy today for SS class!)
Who then is the friend of the bridegroom?
John 3:29 He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, which standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is fulfilled.
I'm puzzled why you even post. Are you afraid somebody might actually be slightly interested in the way you think?
What does "Lord" mean to you? Paul obviously thought Jesus was his master the minute he asked him. "Lord what must I do?".
Its like Paul trying to reason on Mars hill.
Not sure at this second, but I know who the bride is. 2 Corinthians 11:2 - I feel a divine jealousy for you, for I betrothed you to Christ to present you as a pure bride to her one husband.
Consider the possibility that the bride was a very special and select group, separate from the friend of the bridegroom or the children of the bridechamber. Just as the ten virgins below were not the bride but children of the bridechamber.
Matthew 25: 1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
1 Strong's Number: 3565 Greek: numphe
(Eng. "nymph") "a bride, or young wife," Jhn 3:29; Rev 18:23; 21:2,9; 22:17, is probably connected with the Latin nubo, "to veil;" the "bride" was often adorned with embroidery and jewels ( see Rev 21:2), and was led veiled from her home to the "bridegroom." Hence the secondary meaning of "daughter-in-law," Mat 10:35; Luk 12:53. See DAUGHTER-IN-LAW. For the relationship between Christ and a local church, under this figure, see 2Cr 11:2; regarding the whole church, Eph 5:23-32; Rev 22:17.
2 Strong's Number: 3566 Greek: numphios
"a bridegroom," occurs fourteen times in the Gospels, and in Rev 18:23. "The friend of the bridegroom," Jhn 3:29, is distinct from "the sons of the bride-chamber" who were numerous. (Angelo, can you shed any light on this point?)When John the Baptist speaks of "the friend of the Bridegroom," he uses language according to the customs of the Jews.
3 Strong's Number: 3567 Greek: numphon
signifies (a) "the room or dining hall in which the marriage ceremonies were held," Mat 22:10; some mss. have gamos, "a wedding," here; (b) "the chamber containing the bridal bed," "the sons of the bridechamber" being the friends of the bridegroom, who had the charge of providing what was necessary for the nuptials, Mat 9:15; Mar 2:19; Luk 5:34.
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