The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[SoothingDave]

we learn to walk faithfully, by the strength He supplies, getting our nourishment from the word and the Spirit, and not rely on "feelings." He transforms us into His image "from glory to glory. This is the work of the Spirit, but we cooperate by our obedience....yet our resolve and enablement for obedience *also* comes from Him. It all goes back to HIM, which is why all glory is due Him.

I can't aruge with any of that. I would just add that you said you get your strength from Him from the word and the Spirit. We too believe this, but we believe that He gave us a special way to gain strength. We call them Sacraments and Communion is the main one we rely upon.

And we also believe that our transformation into His image can be completed after we die and before we enter Heaven.

SD

[al_c]

Nice. But that didn't answer the question ...

If we die while squandering our inheritance (eternal life), where would that leave us?

Unless you're saying that we can't possible squander our inheritance?

After reading through these passages, I still don't follow you. Our inheritance IS eternal life, is it not?

Also, through this viewpoint, you seem to be laying a support for one of my earlier claims (from a couple of days ago) that no man is cut off from the glory of our Lord (but let's not start on that again ;o).

[hopefulpilgrim]

There is no such thing as a state of existence after death called "purgatory." When we lay aside this fleshly body in death, we go directly to heaven---the apostle Paul refers to this as "going Home."

Are you going to heaven the way you are now, or shall you be changed? SD

I'm sorry, Dave; at this point, I can only speculate, because I'm not aware of any solid evidence one way or the other. I do know THIS, though: Although my life on earth may not be sinless, the Lord *could* welcome me Home just the way I am right now, because He dealt with my sin at Calvary, and the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to me, and that would be the basis of His "Welcome Home!" The depths of God's grace through the death, the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ!! Praise to the Lamb of God!

[SoothingDave]

After reading through these passages, I still don't follow you. Our inheritance IS eternal life, is it not?

No, al. This is the theology I can figure out from these folks. We are all given, for free, the gift of "salvation" just for the asking. We are then judged and given a "reward" based upon what we did with our gift. What this reward is, or how it manifests itself is unclear. Jesus talked about His Father's mansion having many rooms.

So I reckon that we all will go to Heaven like if we all went to the Super Bowl. Some of us will stay in the top flight hotels on the "President's" floor, eat steak dinners and sit in a luxury box while watching the Steelers win.

Others have to stay at the Day's Inn out by the airport, take the city bus to the game, find out our ticket is standing room only behind the giant scoreboard and eat bologna sandwiches while rooting for the Cowboys.

It's still Heaven, but the rewards are different. Any place in Scripture where there is talk of being judged it is this judgement, of our place in Heaven, not our admittance to Heaven.

(It has to be the Steelers, Cowboys, Packers, etc. Why? Cause the Lions will lie down with the Rams.)

SD

[JHavard]

I mentioned this [Acts 13:1-3] to call attention to the fact that Paul and Barnabus were not ordained by apostles, but bu the Church and it's people...There goes your idea that only the apostles could ordain ministers, and claim apostolic succession.

JHavard, did they ever actually deal with the passage itself that you referred them to, or did they ignore it and argue with you? Just curious, because I've noticed that they do this a lot.

This scripture definitely blows a hole in their apostolic seccession, and shows that things were going to be done differently from then on, thanks for bringing it up again. (^g^)

[JHavard]

I mentioned this [Acts 13:1-3] to call attention to the fact that Paul and Barnabus were not ordained by apostles, but bu the Church and it's people...There goes your idea that only the apostles could ordain ministers, and claim apostolic succession.

JHavard, did they ever actually deal with the passage itself that you referred them to, or did they ignore it and argue with you? Just curious, because I've noticed that they do this a lot.

This scripture definitely blows a hole in their apostolic seccession, and shows that things were going to be done differently from then on, thanks for bringing it up again. (^g^)

[al_c]

I know I will get alot of argument about this, but drinking is not a sin, drunkenness is. That would be gluttony.

No argument here.

[SoothingDave]

I'm sorry, Dave; at this point, I can only speculate, because I'm not aware of any solid evidence one way or the other.

I think it's pretty clear the wickedness can not exist in the Presence of God.

I do know THIS, though: Although my life on earth may not be sinless, the Lord *could* welcome me Home just the way I am right now, because He dealt with my sin at Calvary, and the righteousness of Christ has been imputed to me, and that would be the basis of His "Welcome Home!"

I'm glad to see you use this term. And "acquitted" was used yesterday. I hate to think I was holding an unfair caricature. I will try to think of ways to convince you of the need for a real change in your person, not just an imputed righteousness.

As for me, I believe that Christ did what He did to give me the power to become actually holy, not to have me considered holy.

SD

[hopefulpilgrim]

We too believe this, but we believe that He gave us a special way to gain strength. We call them Sacraments and Communion is the main one we rely upon. And we also believe that our transformation into His image can be completed after we die and before we enter Heaven. SD

Yes, I realize that you guys believe that the sacraments, especially the eucharist, gives you strength. As I said, my strength comes from Christ within. I realize that it is futile to rely on anything material. Would you be able to draw from His strength only, if you couldn't get your "fix" at communion? (That is not meant to be sarcastic. But I do not believe that that is why Christ instituted The Lord's Supper, as I'm sure you are aware....my being a "prottie" and all that....)

I'm off to work. See y'all later. God bless! Hopefulpilgrim

[JohnnyM]

in essence that is what it is, although its not as "quaint" as you put it. Christ did say that his disciples would judge the tribes of Israel. He did not say that of you or I or others who have been saved. So obviously there will be those who have greater responsibilities/rewards in heaven than others and that is determined by what we do with our lives while on this earth.

JM

[SoothingDave]

This scripture definitely blows a hole in their apostolic seccession, and shows that things were going to be done differently from then on, thanks for bringing it up again

There already was a Church at Antioch when this happened, right? Who was the leader there (who founded the Church)?

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

Mt 1: 25. And knew her not till before she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name JESUS.

Good grief man, "till" is not a contraction of "until". Any Bible scholar knows it really refers to "turning the soil".

And he did not allow her to turn the soil before she had brought her . . . (lets not get involved with what "firstborn" means.

-----------------------------------------------

In the same vein I posted (#2612) a passage from DOUAY-RHEIMS, PSALM 68 which I asked ALL to respond to, hoping I would get an answer from a Catholic Bible Scholar. So far - no replies.

I will post the signifant part here, hoping someone will explain just what is meant:

DOUAY-RHEIMS

Psalm 68

Christ in his passion declareth the greatness of his sufferings, and the malice of his persecutors the Jews; and foretelleth their reprobation.
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1 Unto the end, for them that shall be changed; for David.

2 Save me, O God: for the waters are come in even unto my soul.

3 I stick fast in the mire of the deep and there is no sure standing. I am come into the depth of the sea, and a tempest hath overwhelmed me.

4 I have laboured with crying; my jaws are become hoarse, my eyes have failed, whilst I hope in my God.

5 They are multiplied above the hairs of my head, who hate me without cause. My enemies are grown strong who have wrongfully persecuted me: then did I pay that which I took not away.

6 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my offences are not hidden from thee:

7 Let not them be ashamed for me, who look for thee, O Lord, the Lord of hosts. Let them not be confounded on my account, who seek thee, O God of Israel.

8 Because for thy sake I have borne reproach; shame hath covered my face.

9 I am become a stranger to my brethren, and an alien to the sons of my mother.
------------------------------------------------------------

The sons of whose mother?

[JHavard]

Sorry for the double post again, the first time I hit post reply", it went to the internet disconnect page, I hit "back", and hit "post reply" again, and it double posted, what's happening?

[SoothingDave]

in essence that is what it is, although its not as "quaint" as you put it.

I didn't mean to belittle your idea, just to explain it in simple terms. No offense intended. (Except to Cowboy fans)

SD

[Havoc]

Because, leaving aside the baggage of helping each other out and indulgences, etc, we have agreed that there is a Purification process that occurs after death. This is the state of existence we Catholics call Purgatory.

Why is it I've never seen that parallel drawn in Catholic Literature?

Why is it that the change is instantaneous in the Bible and glorifying while Catholicism paints purgatory as the next best thing to hell. Before you deny the latter, you'd do well to read some Catholic literature in which numerous Catholics throughout time, including the likes of Cyril, are quoted as saying they'd rather spend time in Hell than in purgatory. The Catholic purgatory is a spiritual pennitentiary. The Bible paints no such picture - nor does it even mention it. Yet, Catholicism has defined it to the point of telling such intricacies as how long one might expect, on average, to spend in purgatory. Being changed in an instant does not equate to years and years in prison being held captive for 'lesser sins.' To God there are no 'lesser sins' All sin is equal - one is just unforgiveable. No comparison between being changed in an instant and purgatory. And considering the Catholic church has never claimed this equivalance, I would suggest you are grasping at straws in order to make it seem feasable. It's a Crock, Dave... a lie of the devil. Say it with me, "Purgatory is a Lie of the Devil." See, I knew that you could..

[al_c]

(It has to be the Steelers, Cowboys, Packers, etc. Why? Cause the Lions will lie down with the Rams.)

Oh! Now I get it! < /sarcasm >

Hey ... did you know Jones is wanting a new stadium? I think he might need to get a winning team first and quit firing all his starters. A quarterback that can stay healthy would be nice, too. Wright is now gone for the season and Stoerner is the starter with Leaf as back up. It's going to be a long season. :o(

[SoothingDave]

I realize that it is futile to rely on anything material.

Sacraments are not merely "material." They, like the Incarnation itself, are a working together of the matter which makes up our world and the power of God who rules everything. Each Sacrament is a mini-Incarnation as God become present through the actions and material used in imitation of Christ Himself.

Would you be able to draw from His strength only, if you couldn't get your "fix" at communion?

Yes, but it would be foolish and insulting. Could you live off of tree bark, cork, and leather? Probably for a while, but you would be foolish and insulting to turn down a luscious banquet to eat instead the furniture, your shoes, and the coasters.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Hey ... did you know Jones is wanting a new stadium?

Think they'll have enough money to finish the roof this time?

SD

[al_c]

Sorry for the double post again, the first time I hit post reply", it went to the internet disconnect page, I hit "back", and hit "post reply" again, and it double posted, what's happening?

Strange stuff, huh? A couple of times this morning, after I hit the post button, it took me back to the discussion, but my post was not there. So I hit the back button and then post again, then my post appeared. Weird.

[al_c]

Think they'll have enough money to finish the roof this time?

Oh, Jones will have the roof finished. Unlike Landry, Jones doesn't care if God wants to watch the Cowboys. ;o)

Have you seen this months Texas Monthly? Cover story is "Is Jerry Jones the Devil?"