The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[vmatt]

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Context, context, context. Who is the author of this psalm? It is David, not Jesus. There are many cases in the Tanakh of men being referred to as Son of God. This does not indicate divinity.

You questioned the verse I provided to indicate through the psalmist David prophecy of what I believe to be Jesus speaking of his Lord, God. This is referring to a begotten Son, the only one God ever had.

[vmatt]

Well, if you keep in mind that Jews believe in only One God, then the context should determine usage. What I gave from Psalm 82 is not the only example. Consider this:

And the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1) This does not mean that Moses was made divine.

I love this, thanks. Now here is a quandry. When I say Christ was a God, I get negative replies yet here is Christ arguing basically that Moses and others were "gods", so why am I attacked for calling Christ "a God"? Thanks for your replies Angelo intersting indeed. I won't be around much today so take care all and THE MOST HIGH God bless!;)

[Havoc]

Oh, I'm sorry, I forgot to mention that the Patriarchate of Rome also violated the normative practice of the Church in not providing the Celtic peoples with Scriptures and services in a language they understood. There are you happy?

LOL. Just wouldn't want to let you get by with statements like 'the Roman church taught everyone in a language they understood.' It's neither honest, nor accurate -nor close to being either.

[Goetz_von_Berlichingen]

"And The Holy Roman Emperor held his power in trust from God as the protector of Christendom."

On this point, I agree entirely. Also, it should be noted that the Holy Roman Empire was never "officially" dissolved. Admittedly, Kaiser Franz abdicated, but HM had no authority to end the Empire itself, nor did the Congress of Vienna ten years later.

There are still bishops in the Electoral sees. Now if only the Margrave of Brandenburg, Dukes of Saxony and Bavaria, et al. would send in their ballots, perhaps we could clear up this Euro mess once and for all.

[DouglasKC]

And the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you a god to Pharaoh; and Aaron your brother shall be your prophet. (Exodus 7:1) This does not mean that Moses was made divine.

Actually this was another interesting Jesus parallel. The Lord made Moses as a "God" with Aaron as him mouthpiece. In like kind, God was silent while Jesus was his mouthpiece

[Havoc]

Are there any more errors you guys can bring into this argument; because I'm completely amazed at the sheer magnitude of them so far. Over one sin you all have rewritten common sense and scripture for the sake of argument. I'm truly perplexed at such confusion in 'christians.'

[DouglasKC]

The gentle reader is asked to bear in mind that your humble correspondent has not included the "biggies" (Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, and Hitler) because his frame of reference ends with the destruction of Christendom, ca. 1918. Almost every contest since that time has been merely a falling out among banditti , as they divvy up the spoils

You had a very interesting and informative profile page. I was intrigued by the reference to Christendom ending in 1918. Can you elaborate on this a little?

Thanks!

[ksen]

You got a reply.

-ksen

[ksen]

There are still bishops in the Electoral sees. Now if only the Margrave of Brandenburg, Dukes of Saxony and Bavaria, et al. would send in their ballots, perhaps we could clear up this Euro mess once and for all.

Good morning,

This statement of yours intrigued me. Is there a possibility that this could happen? Do you know if there is a movement to get this done? After all, the EU is clamoring for a leader, maybe something like this would provide that leader.

-ksen

[The_Reader_David]

You are stretching what I said. I said that the Patriarchate of Rome did not follow the norm by providing translations of the Scriptures and the Services into a language understood by the people. If you can give me a citation to an ancient liturgy or translation of the Scriptures into a Germanic or Celtic language approved by the Patriachate of Rome and made available to the relevant non-Latin speaking peoples of the Patriarchate, including a history of its approval by the Pope of Rome and its use, I will retract what I wrote. Please note also, I am criticizing the behavior of a Patriachate of my own Church: the use of Latin instead of the vernacular throughout the Patriachate is not a post-schism development.

I did not claim the Patriarchate did not "teach" in a language understood by the people. Surely St. Patrick, Enlightener of Ireland preached and taught in his native Irish Celtic. But where are the Irish Celtic Masses, orders for Baptism, Ordination, Confirmation or Christmation, Unction, marriage rites, the tonsuring of monastics? Where are the Celtic Gospel Books, Books of the Apostles or Lectionaries?

[ksen]

Hey Mack,

How long do you think it will take before Havoc gets The_Reader_David to cuss?

-ksen

[DouglasKC]

Hey Mack How long do you think it will take before Havoc gets The_Reader_David to cuss? -ksen

LOL...I'm putting my money on 4 more posts...

[RobbyS]

By the Jews who do you mean? The Sadducees, who rejected the resurrection, or the Pharisees, who believed in it? Or do you mean the Essenes, who rejected the temple? Or the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem and elsewhere? Do you deny that the latter, who had been persecuted ever since they first claimed that Jesus was the Christ were formally excluded from the synagogues, barred from worshipping with "real" Jews so long as they did not reject their "false" Messiah? No doubt that there were Christians who from the beginning wanted to have nothing to do with the Law and who went to the extremes of denying that Jesus was really a Jew(Docetists), or even to the futher extreme of calling the Law evil. But the "great" Church was always insistent that he was a Jew, a son of David born of a Jewish mother, that the "Israelites" were God's chosen people and the Law of Moses was God's Law which was fulfilled in Jesus. You are saying that the "real" Jews who so roughly treated the Christians and after awhile treated them as Abraham treated Ishmael, played no role, none whatsoever in the alienation of Christians?

[Elsie]

You could believe in Jesus as divine savior simply on the testimony of the apostles and the resurrection, without even bringing the Hebrew scriptures into it.

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And, on the other hand, the whole Jesus 'heresy' got started merely by using the 'JEWISH' scriptures, as there WAS no 'Christian' writings at the time!

Heck, ONE guy just had the 'Scroll of Isaiah' and it was enough for him!

(It must take a LOT more 'evidence' now-a-days for people to believe.)

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Acts Chapter 8

26. Now an angel of the Lord said to Philip, "Go south to the road--the desert road--that goes down from Jerusalem to Gaza."
27. So he started out, and on his way he met an Ethiopian eunuch, an important official in charge of all the treasury of Candace, queen of the Ethiopians. This man had gone to Jerusalem to worship,
28. and on his way home was sitting in his chariot reading the book of Isaiah the prophet.
29. The Spirit told Philip, "Go to that chariot and stay near it."
30. Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.
31. "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
32. The eunuch was reading this passage of Scripture: "He was led like a sheep to the slaughter, and as a lamb before the shearer is silent, so he did not open his mouth.
33. In his humiliation he was deprived of justice. Who can speak of his descendants? For his life was taken from the earth."
34. The eunuch asked Philip, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?"
35. Then Philip began with that very passage of Scripture and told him the good news about Jesus.
36. As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"
38. And he gave orders to stop the chariot. Then both Philip and the eunuch went down into the water and Philip baptized him.
39. When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing.

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The question remains then, "Tell me, please, who is the prophet talking about, himself or someone else?"

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NIV Acts 9:20-24
 20.  At once he began to preach in the synagogues that Jesus is the Son of God.
 21.  All those who heard him were astonished and asked, "Isn't he the man who raised havoc in Jerusalem among those who call on this name? And hasn't he come here to take them as prisoners to the chief priests?"
 22.  Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ.
 23.  After many days had gone by, the Jews conspired to kill him,
 24.  but Saul learned of their plan. Day and night they kept close watch on the city gates in order to kill him.

 

 

NIV Acts 17:2-5
 2.  As his custom was, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
 3.  explaining and proving that the Christ  had to suffer and rise from the dead. "This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Christ, " he said.
 4.  Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and not a few prominent women.
 5.  But the Jews were jealous; so they rounded up some bad characters from the marketplace, formed a mob and started a riot in the city. They rushed to Jason's house in search of Paul and Silas in order to bring them out to the crowd.

 

 

NIV Acts 18:24-28
 24.  Meanwhile a Jew named Apollos, a native of Alexandria, came to Ephesus. He was a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures.
 25.  He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervor  and taught about Jesus accurately, though he knew only the baptism of John.
 26.  He began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they invited him to their home and explained to him the way of God more adequately.
 27.  When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed.
 28.  For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.

 

NIV Acts 24:9-16
 9.  The Jews joined in the accusation, asserting that these things were true.
 10. When the governor motioned for him to speak, Paul replied: "I know that for a number of years you have been a judge over this nation; so I gladly make my defense.
 11.  You can easily verify that no more than twelve days ago I went up to Jerusalem to worship.
 12.  My accusers did not find me arguing with anyone at the temple, or stirring up a crowd in the synagogues or anywhere else in the city.
 13.  And they cannot prove to you the charges they are now making against me.
 14.  However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
 15.  and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked. 
 16.  So I strive always to keep my conscience clear before God and man.

 

 

NIV Acts 25:7
 7.  When Paul appeared, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him, bringing many serious charges against him, which they could not prove.

 

[Elsie]

Is there anyone else who claimed to be God, and who was killed at the hands of foreigners? ....and got a big discussion going on FRland 2000 years later??????

[JohnnyM]

"Is there anyone else who claimed to be God, and who was killed at the hands of foreigners?"

The Lawnmower Man??

JM

[Elsie]

Reading the Hebrew scriptures through the lens of the gospels can indeed be quite enlightening.

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It's that 'veil' thing. You wouldn't understand..........

2 Corinthians 3:13-17
13. We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away.
14. But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.
15. Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.
16. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
17. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

[Havoc]

Didn't Jesus say that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church?

Yeah, the church - the body of believers - ie. HIS followers who are born again, baptized in the Holy Spirit and Doing what HE tells them to do. His Church. Not an organizational hierarchy.

[Elsie]

(Oh, I'm tempted to leave you hanging until Sunday night! ;o)

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Oh NO!

Don't do that!!!

("Let's see.. I was just out in the garage, and I came into the house.. for WHAT!!?!?!?!")

[RobbyS]

The Council was an inovation, an extension of the regional synods that had long been a feature of Church government and one that gave a powerful layman a leading role in the Church. Justinian, who fancified himself as a theological equal to any bishop, sought disaterously to settle the Monophysite dispute. In the 8th Century, Leo the Isaurian and his successors, caused turmoil in the Church, including the use of a "council" to impose iconoclasm on the Church . It was to avoid this sort of imperial meddling or "caesaropapism" that led the Church of Rome to develop papal government. The struggle between the medieval pope and the western emperors cannot be properly understood except in the light of the history of the Byzantine state Church.