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The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)
Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams


Thread 162
TNS Archives


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; michaeldobbs
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To: IMRight; angelo
But then I didn't understand the forces we would be up against when we first got married.

So true. I have a different situation, I think. My husband was baptized a Lutheran but is now an agnostic. He is pretty hostile to the Catholic faith but not around the kids. We do not fight over religion at all but I do the religious training and take them to church. I have to give him credit for being there at any serious religious ceremony like baptisms, communion, first penance. Not sure how this is all going to work out for the kids when they are older, but I try each day to integrate God in my kids' lives. I guess we all do our best and let God figure it out!

24,601 posted on 02/06/2002 11:17:17 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
I'll pray for you. And them. And him.
24,602 posted on 02/06/2002 11:18:48 AM PST by IMRight
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
"Yes very much so…"

Then perhaps this is the way out of your impasse. It's the only one I can think of so far. Do you have others that have possibility?

24,603 posted on 02/06/2002 11:19:24 AM PST by D-fendr
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To: IMRight
Thanks very much! I'll do the same for you.
24,604 posted on 02/06/2002 11:21:38 AM PST by american colleen
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Anyway D-fendr thanks for letting me share this with you. (I'm kinda lonely, could you Freep mail me every once and a while:)

BigMack

Excelllent answer. IMO just what was called for.
24,605 posted on 02/06/2002 11:21:39 AM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Do you want to come to God on that kind of basis? Are you prepared to tell God today that you do love Him, love Him every moment of the day and have loved Him with all your mind, your heart and your soul, that you have never loved or put anything ahead of Him?

I kinda like the one from the Psalm in the reading SoothingDave posted this morning:

Then I acknowledged my sin to you,
my guilt I covered not.
I said, "I confess my faults to the Lord,"
and you took away the guilt of my sin.

24,606 posted on 02/06/2002 11:23:24 AM PST by malakhi
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To: D-fendr
Nope that seems to be the best I can do at this time. My dad is stuck between a rock and a hard place on this issue too. Here lately I get the feeling he may have alot more respect for Mack and I then he use too, :) and my poor brother who has followed in my parents steps, kids went to catholic school, etc, his whole life has been a disaster. (I'm not saying because he is catholic either) But he is divorced, ex-wife gay, both kids lived with girls before they married, one had a child out of wedlock, brother is a crap dealer in vegas now, his boys live around here. I know dad thinks that's terrible the Dan went off to vegas and left his boys here.

But you see my mother is dead. If dad was to at this point admit something is wrong with the catholic faith, he would then have to worry about mom. See where I am going. That is a huge thing to deal with too. So I am just trying to be patient, but the man is 72, has had cancer, and is not in good shape. So pray for him.

Becky

24,607 posted on 02/06/2002 11:29:40 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: D-fendr, Soothing Dave, american colleen
Did you folks see this article?

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3251/genjp2000.html

24,608 posted on 02/06/2002 11:29:50 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: al_c;all
Hey everybody look!

It snowed in Dallas for little Grace's birthday.

Ain't the special?

SD

24,609 posted on 02/06/2002 11:33:58 AM PST by SoothingDave
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To: american colleen;Invincibly Ignorant;Wordsmith
It's sad that "ritualistic hocus pocus stuff" drove you away. I stay because I don't see it in the same light that you do. I see it as a reverential, all sensory, beautiful way to worship God.

All I remember is that the "ritual" meant nothing to me or my classmates. We would squirm and giggle all the time. Bob up, kneel down, mumble, mumble. All rote and no emotion.

The way I see it is the externals "showtime" vs the internals. If you need ritual to put yourself in touch with the Lord I feel bad for you. There will be times, when you need the Lord the most, there will be only you.
24,610 posted on 02/06/2002 11:35:00 AM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE
Amen

Becky

24,611 posted on 02/06/2002 11:36:22 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
I get it. You really are stuck, and I will pray for both of you. You can't push too hard because he won't want anything to do with a theology that puts his wife in hell. Your only option is to get him RC works that support the basic foundations of the faith. If it is possible (in your thought) for a RC to be saved within the CC, then your task is to save him within the CC. I also pray that you misundertood your mother's faith as well.
24,612 posted on 02/06/2002 11:37:16 AM PST by IMRight
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To: IMRight
as a Jewish/Christian mix (is that you?).

Yep, that's us, although (my poor wife!) I was Catholic when we married. Our children will be raised Catholic, because that is what we agreed upon before we were married. My wife is hardly an orthodox Catholic either, but unlike her sister has not chosen to leave the church, so really they are being raised more as 'nondenominational' Christians within the Catholic Church. She likes the priest, the parish and the school. I take care of the Hebrew scriptures, and my wife covers the Christian scriptures.

24,613 posted on 02/06/2002 11:37:44 AM PST by malakhi
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Thanks Cap'n! I bookmarked the link - you should ping tiki and theresa on this as they really got into the debate about it.

I liked the article on Gorbechev as well.

24,614 posted on 02/06/2002 11:38:10 AM PST by american colleen
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To: american colleen
How did he end up as agnostic? Its too bad that 'down with all kings' didn't stick around long enough to continue the discussion, because maybe you might have gotten some ideas.
24,615 posted on 02/06/2002 11:40:00 AM PST by malakhi
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To: IMRight
Much closer, but no kewpie doll. This looks more like a doctrinal statement for a particular church. For instance, many of them are not necessary for salvation. "The Fundamentals" were a much shorter list of the central beliefs of the Christian Faith. If you denied one of them, you were not fully Christian. "A pure democracy" is hardly a fundamental Christian dogma.

A Fundamentalist is a born-again believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who--

1. Maintains an immovable allegiance to the inerrant, infallible, and verbally inspired Bible.

2. Believes that whatever the Bible says is so.

3. Judges all things by the Bible and is judged only by the Bible.

4. Affirms the foundational truths of the historic Christian Faith: The doctrine of the Trinity; the incarnation, virgin birth, substitutionary atonement, bodily resurrection and glorious ascension, and Second Coming of the Lord Jesus Christ; the new birth through regeneration by the Holy Spirit; the resurrection of the saints to life eternal; the resurrection of the ungodly to final judgment and eternal death; the fellowship of the saints, who are the body of Christ.

5. Practices fidelity to that Faith and endeavors to preach it to every creature.

6. Exposes and separates from all ecclesiastical denial of that Faith, compromise with error, and apostasy from the Truth.

7. Earnestly contends for the Faith once delivered.

"Fundamentalism is militant orthodoxy set on fire with soulwinning zeal."

Many varying definitions of Fundamentalism have been given through the years, and the truth of the matter is that Fundamentalism has taken a great variety of forms. As a movement it has been largely interdenominational, yet many independent, separatist churches, such as independent Baptists and independent Bible churches, have accepted the label. Regardless of this variety, though, one of the chief hallmarks of Fundamentalism--its very essence, if you will--has always been a MILITANCY for the Faith of the Word of God. Anyone who is not truly militant in standing for the Truth has no title to biblical Fundamentalism.

Some have concocted a position that Fundamentalism historically was not militant or separatist, but was merely a belief in "the five fundamentals." This is a serious perversion. We reject John Calvin’s system of predestinarian theology which has been summarized in five points by the acronym of TULIP: Total depravity of man, meaning man is incapable of responding to the Gospel; Unconditional election, meaning God chooses which men will be saved and which men will be lost; Limited atonement, meaning Christ died only for those who will be saved; Irresistible grace, meaning the sinner cannot resist God’s call to salvation; and Perseverance of the saints, meaning those who are saved will hold out faithful to the end.

BigMack

24,616 posted on 02/06/2002 11:41:08 AM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Cap'n Crunch
Well, that didnt work for me, I'll try this one, with an explanation.

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Ithaca/3251/

It's the "traditional catholic reflections and reports" website and they have a good article about the Pope and the Koran. Sorry I'm a knuckledragger.

24,617 posted on 02/06/2002 11:43:34 AM PST by Cap'n Crunch
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To: SoothingDave
I would look at it as being supportive and respectful of your wife's faith. And vice versa. Now what about the kids? Did you get married in the Catholic Church? Will the kids be brought up Catholic?

NOYB
24,618 posted on 02/06/2002 11:44:05 AM PST by OLD REGGIE
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To: OLD REGGIE
All rote and no emotion.

Ritual will be meaningless without the presence of the Holy Spirit, but I think we need to be on guard against developing a dependence on emotion as well. Prayer may leave our mouths feeling like dust but still reach God.

24,619 posted on 02/06/2002 11:45:24 AM PST by Wordsmith
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To: OLD REGGIE
If you need ritual to put yourself in touch with the Lord I feel bad for you. There will be times, when you need the Lord the most, there will be only you.

I agree with you. I think you can find the Lord anywhere you are - if you look for him.

Don't misunderstand me, I don't need the rituals and pomp and circumstance at all - they mean nothing when it comes down to basics, I just love tradition and the sense of history and wonder I find at the Mass. If Mass could only be sacrificed in an empty cave, I would miss the externals but I don't need them to find God.

I was the same as you as a kid - I think most kids are the same. We were fidgety and distracted at times. Don't you think that is the nature of kids? I don't think it is caused by anything other than age and selfishness - not the church. I don't think I would have been much different no matter what religion or church I belonged to.

24,620 posted on 02/06/2002 11:48:00 AM PST by american colleen
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