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The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)
Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.


Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams


Thread 162
TNS Archives


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: christianlist; michaeldobbs
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
Honestly, Becky, I drew more from the questions than the answers. I'll be honest and, I promise, speak from kindness: What I have learned from you is that it is very very important to you to prove that you are not catholic, that catholics are very very wrong, "dead wrong," that what you were taught was wrong, your parents are wrong, and what they were taught is wrong.

It's very important to you to prove this again and again – to Mack? to your family? to yourself? I think you have done everything with this purpose to prove this. I think you have proven that you are not a Catholic. And so I asked: Now what? Now that you've proved it, now what for Becky, what is religion now after it is not Catholic? What does growing toward God mean now for you?

You asked what I take from the answers to your questions. From my questions and answers, you may know by now that I don't think Jesus finds us when we finally get the history right. History is interesting, theology is interesting - to some. But neither is Christianity to me. There is a difference between religion, true religion, and a college level course in history and theology. As great a difference as knowing the formula for water and taking a swim.

So, both of us can give up in our forum thesis dissertation; it doesn't matter if we make an A or an F. We are not going to figure out God nor define and determine the perfect religion. This forum isn't about settling questions of doctrine or history. It's about people like you and me. About our fear and suffering, our longing to be whole, holy. Religious talk sometimes gives us a crack in the wall to see each other's true self.

I see your's riding a fast strong horse along a forest trail beside a river; I see yours riding free – with nothing left to prove to Mack, to your family or to yourself. You can lay that heavy load down now, you've done it; there is nothing left to be gained from carrying it around anymore.

best wishes…

24,001 posted on 02/04/2002 2:09:31 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: trad_anglican
I'm sorry then. I don't see the implications of the difference that you're drawing. Do you believe that Paul imparted some kind of grace to Timothy but it wasn't in accordance with his becoming a bishop?

First of all Paul says himself that by laying his hands on Timothy he was stirring up a gift.

I'm gonna post the entire 1st chapter of Timothy for ya and you tell me where they are having the ceremony to make Timothy a bishop. Just read it for what it is.

1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 1:4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

24,002 posted on 02/04/2002 2:11:37 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: D-fendr
And so I asked: Now what? Now that you've proved it, now what for Becky, what is religion now after it is not Catholic? What does growing toward God mean now for you?

Holy cow d-fender. You really don't pay much attention to her posts do ya?

24,003 posted on 02/04/2002 2:14:12 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: trad_anglican
I'm sorry then. I don't see the implications of the difference that you're drawing. Do you believe that Paul imparted some kind of grace to Timothy but it wasn't in accordance with his becoming a bishop?

I believe he was imparting some gift to him yes. But what specifically is a bishop gift?

24,004 posted on 02/04/2002 2:18:01 PM PST by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: Invincibly Ignorant
In case you are really asking, the answer is "yes, much."
24,005 posted on 02/04/2002 2:29:51 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: the808bass
You failed to answer my questions. Are you dancing for some reason? You made a claim -- back it up. Find a Strong's Concordance and look up the word. What word did Jesus use to mean "interest, usury" in Luke 19:23 and Matthew 25:27? Whether he spoke Aramaic at times or not -- you don't know. The only record of what he said is in the Greek of the Byzantine Text that the Greeks depended upon for centuries.

When in doubt you go to the videotape -- You say you trust the Word of God -- and you know what it means -- prove it from the only source that counts -- an absolute source

Did Jesus use the word "tokos" to mean "interest, usury" or not?. Did he ever use it anyother time to mean anything else? Answer the questions --- they are not hard. But if you don't know what you are talking about -- then sit down and quit taking up cyberspace.

24,006 posted on 02/04/2002 2:42:27 PM PST by Woodkirk
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To: Woodkirk
Perhaps you'd like to join me in the little box we have made specially for this thread. We call it: "The Box For Those Who Made a Post They Regret Posting."

It's a hockey reference I believe.

24,007 posted on 02/04/2002 2:58:48 PM PST by D-fendr
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To: the808bass
To my knowledge Jesus never used the word "tokos." Jesus most likely spoke Aramaic and the words which are used in the Gospels are merely Greek translations of the Hebraic words he spoke.

Be ready to have folks say that "unless you have proof that Jesus spoke it Aramaic, you can't make the claim that he did speak in Aramaic". It's coming.

24,008 posted on 02/04/2002 3:32:00 PM PST by Fury
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To: Woodkirk
Whether he spoke Aramaic at times or not -- you don't know. The only record of what he said is in the Greek of the Byzantine Text that the Greeks depended upon for centuries.

So, based on your logic, then Jesus only spoke Greek?

24,009 posted on 02/04/2002 3:33:06 PM PST by Fury
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To: D-fendr
That's beautiful D-fendr.

But I'm not just out to prove the catholics wrong. Actually I would like to find a way to believe they are right. Remember all my family is still catholic.

Besides isn't that what this whole discussion thing is for. This is not meant to be a whiny question just curious. Several people have made this same observation, why do I get physco analized and say II doesn't?

Becky

24,010 posted on 02/04/2002 3:53:53 PM PST by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
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To: Woodkirk
Are you dancing for some reason?

When I dance, it is the surest form of contraception known to man, so, no, I'm not dancing. I'm merely allowing you to try to save some face with your riduculous flight of fancy in re: qeotokos.

But if you don't know what you are talking about -- then sit down and quit taking up cyberspace.

I thought my posts were rather civil. Since you have seen fit to question my knowledge on the subject in a roundabout sort of way, I will answer. My undergraduate degree is in Classical Greek language. Upon receiving that degree, I enrolled in a Master of Arts in New Testament theology with an emphasis on Greek language at my denomination's seminary. In total, I have over 30 hours of college credit in greek language training (I am not bragging. Merely answering your questioning of the basis of my reasoning in regards to the language). Would you care to share the nature of your knowledge of the Greek language?

Did Jesus use the word "tokos" to mean "interest, usury" or not?

Yes, he did. And let me tell you how I know. Pay very close attention here. I went to the Scriptures you cited (parellel passages, not that that means anything to you) and looked up the Greek. Then I read the sentence IN CONTEXT and saw that the word tokos was used. Then, I compared the various meanings within the semantic domain of the word qeotokos (Did you notice the words IN CONTEXT in the sentence before?). I saw that in the semantic domain of tokos "interest" or "usury" is a perfectly acceptable meaning. As the passage is speaking of money and investment, it seems plain IN CONTEXT that the word means "interest" AS IT IS USED IN THIS PASSAGE.

Do you have any idea how dictionaries are made? Do you have any idea how Strong's concordance was compiled? Your post doesn't seem to indicate such a knowledge. On what basis did you reject the clear dictionary definition with which you were presented? That it wasn't the Bible? The Bible did not create language or else it should've been a whole lot harder to understand. It USED THE LANGUAGE OF THE DAY (lingua franca for those of you playing along with the home version). Thus, the dictionaries of the languages in which it is written are immensely useful in helping us understand them. They are your friend. Use them to your advantage.

Finally, how would you translate qeotokos? I am most interested to hear your answer to this question. If you cannot answer this question, I shall have to write your ramblings off as not interested in any sort of truth. And be careful when you answer. Don't equivocate. Give me an exact translation of the word.

24,011 posted on 02/04/2002 4:37:37 PM PST by the808bass
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To: D-fendr
The Box For Those Who Made a Post They Regret Posting

When D-fendr is making posts he regrets it's just another sign of the Apocalypse. Maranatha!

24,012 posted on 02/04/2002 4:40:36 PM PST by the808bass
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To: Woodkirk
Finally, how would you translate qeotokos?

Here's a hint. Not only do the Catholics take it very seriously that Mary was a virgin, all Christians take it very seriously that she was a woman. FWIW

24,013 posted on 02/04/2002 4:45:05 PM PST by the808bass
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To: Fury
Hey listen, Fury, you said that you are into the Textus Receptus and the Strong's Concordance per your post. Perhaps you could look up the word that Luke and Matthew both record that Jesus used for "interest. usury" in that parable. Tell us all whether it is the word "tokos" or some other word. And then tell us what word Jesus used when referring to his mother. If you need help, let me know, I've been doing it for decades and would be happy to teach you,.
24,014 posted on 02/04/2002 5:30:06 PM PST by Woodkirk
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To: PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
#23878
How about BOST ? (Bovine Organic Soil Treatment)
24,015 posted on 02/04/2002 5:38:11 PM PST by dadwags
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To: the808bass
Ouch. Hey Bassman. This guy had added a little to the conversation over the last week or so. I hope you didn't scare him away.

Remind me to bring up major Greek arguments when you are not online - (I'll start by insulting you once every hour for six hours. Then only after you fail to respond will I post my thoughts). I took a little Greek with my NT studies courses (enough to brute-force my way through John, but not at a level that I ever got more out of it than a good English translation) but really can't read anything anymore (of course I took 4 1/2 years of Spanish with straight A's and can't speak that anymore either).

24,016 posted on 02/04/2002 5:46:22 PM PST by IMRight
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To: Woodkirk
#24006
I think part of the Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic problem comes from the early writings . It would seem to be that Jesus and the Apostles spoke Aramaic and read Hebrew and/or Greek .
There was one of the early "fathers" who wrote that Matthew wrote in Aramaic or Hebrew , but all the existing copies are in Greek . That would present some problems for interpretation, IMHO .
24,017 posted on 02/04/2002 5:47:03 PM PST by dadwags
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To: D-fendr
Hey , listen, you don't happen to have a Strong's Exhaustive Concordance that you can lend to some of your friends here. They use words and don't know what they mean. I'm sure it happens a lot to you:. Maybe if you just sent a copy of page 72 of the Greek Dictionary in the back to some of them. If you need help, let me know. It is the page with this word on it:

#5110 "tokos . . . . interest on money loaned, usury".

24,018 posted on 02/04/2002 5:58:36 PM PST by Woodkirk
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To: OLD REGGIE
#23974
How about the World Almanac for any of the last 40 years ? There is a list of all the popes
Peter, Linus, Cletus (or Anacletus), Clement, Etc.
24,019 posted on 02/04/2002 6:07:48 PM PST by dadwags
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To: Woodkirk
Hey listen, Fury, you said that you are into the Textus Receptus and the Strong's Concordance per your post. Perhaps you could look up the word that Luke and Matthew both record that Jesus used for "interest. usury" in that parable. Tell us all whether it is the word "tokos" or some other word. And then tell us what word Jesus used when referring to his mother. If you need help, let me know, I've been doing it for decades and would be happy to teach you,.

Thanks for the offer. I think I am all set for the rsearch, but I'll let you know if I need some assistance.

I am working on the questions on Peter, and I see that others are educating you on the matters you speak of, so I'll leave the discussion in their capable hands.

24,020 posted on 02/04/2002 6:14:49 PM PST by Fury
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