Posted on 10/15/2001 6:54:40 AM PDT by malakhi
| Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams |
It's very important to you to prove this again and again – to Mack? to your family? to yourself? I think you have done everything with this purpose to prove this. I think you have proven that you are not a Catholic. And so I asked: Now what? Now that you've proved it, now what for Becky, what is religion now after it is not Catholic? What does growing toward God mean now for you?
You asked what I take from the answers to your questions. From my questions and answers, you may know by now that I don't think Jesus finds us when we finally get the history right. History is interesting, theology is interesting - to some. But neither is Christianity to me. There is a difference between religion, true religion, and a college level course in history and theology. As great a difference as knowing the formula for water and taking a swim.
So, both of us can give up in our forum thesis dissertation; it doesn't matter if we make an A or an F. We are not going to figure out God nor define and determine the perfect religion. This forum isn't about settling questions of doctrine or history. It's about people like you and me. About our fear and suffering, our longing to be whole, holy. Religious talk sometimes gives us a crack in the wall to see each other's true self.
I see your's riding a fast strong horse along a forest trail beside a river; I see yours riding free – with nothing left to prove to Mack, to your family or to yourself. You can lay that heavy load down now, you've done it; there is nothing left to be gained from carrying it around anymore.
best wishes…
First of all Paul says himself that by laying his hands on Timothy he was stirring up a gift.
I'm gonna post the entire 1st chapter of Timothy for ya and you tell me where they are having the ceremony to make Timothy a bishop. Just read it for what it is.
1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus, 1:2 To Timothy, my dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord. 1:3 I thank God, whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience, that without ceasing I have remembrance of thee in my prayers night and day; 1:4 Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy; 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also. 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands. 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind. 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God; 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus. 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us. 1:15 This thou knowest, that all they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes. 1:16 The Lord give mercy unto the house of Onesiphorus; for he oft refreshed me, and was not ashamed of my chain: 1:17 But, when he was in Rome, he sought me out very diligently, and found me. 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.
Holy cow d-fender. You really don't pay much attention to her posts do ya?
I believe he was imparting some gift to him yes. But what specifically is a bishop gift?
When in doubt you go to the videotape -- You say you trust the Word of God -- and you know what it means -- prove it from the only source that counts -- an absolute source
Did Jesus use the word "tokos" to mean "interest, usury" or not?. Did he ever use it anyother time to mean anything else? Answer the questions --- they are not hard. But if you don't know what you are talking about -- then sit down and quit taking up cyberspace.
It's a hockey reference I believe.
Be ready to have folks say that "unless you have proof that Jesus spoke it Aramaic, you can't make the claim that he did speak in Aramaic". It's coming.
So, based on your logic, then Jesus only spoke Greek?
But I'm not just out to prove the catholics wrong. Actually I would like to find a way to believe they are right. Remember all my family is still catholic.
Besides isn't that what this whole discussion thing is for. This is not meant to be a whiny question just curious. Several people have made this same observation, why do I get physco analized and say II doesn't?
Becky
When I dance, it is the surest form of contraception known to man, so, no, I'm not dancing. I'm merely allowing you to try to save some face with your riduculous flight of fancy in re: qeotokos.
But if you don't know what you are talking about -- then sit down and quit taking up cyberspace.
I thought my posts were rather civil. Since you have seen fit to question my knowledge on the subject in a roundabout sort of way, I will answer. My undergraduate degree is in Classical Greek language. Upon receiving that degree, I enrolled in a Master of Arts in New Testament theology with an emphasis on Greek language at my denomination's seminary. In total, I have over 30 hours of college credit in greek language training (I am not bragging. Merely answering your questioning of the basis of my reasoning in regards to the language). Would you care to share the nature of your knowledge of the Greek language?
Did Jesus use the word "tokos" to mean "interest, usury" or not?
Yes, he did. And let me tell you how I know. Pay very close attention here. I went to the Scriptures you cited (parellel passages, not that that means anything to you) and looked up the Greek. Then I read the sentence IN CONTEXT and saw that the word tokos was used. Then, I compared the various meanings within the semantic domain of the word qeotokos (Did you notice the words IN CONTEXT in the sentence before?). I saw that in the semantic domain of tokos "interest" or "usury" is a perfectly acceptable meaning. As the passage is speaking of money and investment, it seems plain IN CONTEXT that the word means "interest" AS IT IS USED IN THIS PASSAGE.
Do you have any idea how dictionaries are made? Do you have any idea how Strong's concordance was compiled? Your post doesn't seem to indicate such a knowledge. On what basis did you reject the clear dictionary definition with which you were presented? That it wasn't the Bible? The Bible did not create language or else it should've been a whole lot harder to understand. It USED THE LANGUAGE OF THE DAY (lingua franca for those of you playing along with the home version). Thus, the dictionaries of the languages in which it is written are immensely useful in helping us understand them. They are your friend. Use them to your advantage.
Finally, how would you translate qeotokos? I am most interested to hear your answer to this question. If you cannot answer this question, I shall have to write your ramblings off as not interested in any sort of truth. And be careful when you answer. Don't equivocate. Give me an exact translation of the word.
When D-fendr is making posts he regrets it's just another sign of the Apocalypse. Maranatha!
Here's a hint. Not only do the Catholics take it very seriously that Mary was a virgin, all Christians take it very seriously that she was a woman. FWIW
Remind me to bring up major Greek arguments when you are not online - (I'll start by insulting you once every hour for six hours. Then only after you fail to respond will I post my thoughts). I took a little Greek with my NT studies courses (enough to brute-force my way through John, but not at a level that I ever got more out of it than a good English translation) but really can't read anything anymore (of course I took 4 1/2 years of Spanish with straight A's and can't speak that anymore either).
#5110 "tokos . . . . interest on money loaned, usury".
Thanks for the offer. I think I am all set for the rsearch, but I'll let you know if I need some assistance.
I am working on the questions on Peter, and I see that others are educating you on the matters you speak of, so I'll leave the discussion in their capable hands.
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