The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[the808bass]

Protestant here objects to the term because of what it explicitly does not mean.

If they agree to the underlying point (Jesus being fully God and fully man and his being fully God from "the primordial beginning" (ever)) I don't see why you're pushing so hard to get assent to the term "theotokos." I think that makes them doubt your agenda. If we agree as to Jesus being fully God and fully man, and that He was God from the beginning, I don't see a point in wrangling over a name, i.e. - Theotokos.

[SoothingDave]

I am not posting this to bash Catholics, or even to say that this is what the catholic doctrine is. Is why I am posting it is to show you that this is how even professing catholics UNDERSTAND what the church teaches. This is what I have been trying to say. That catholics don't even understand what catholics teach. I didn't. I will also say that I think the same holds true in ALL faiths. Most people are going to church without even knowing what that church believes. They think just going to church is enough, no matter what it is. That is why there are so many "protestants" fatih out there. There are just as many catholics who don't agree with the catholic doctrine, but they still go by the catholic name.

But when I tried to tell you that these were the beliefs I walked away with after 12 years in catholic schools, you said that I was just being not bright, or not paying attention, or going to a bad school, or that I just wasn't getting it. If that's the case then there are alot of not bright, or not paying attention, or bad catholic schools out there becasue from this survey there are alot of catholic's out there that don't believe the same why you do.

I can hear it now, BAD SURVEY, right:)

Not at all. Sad survey is better. Becky, I'm not sure what the reaction was to your announcing of Catholic schooling but I know that myself and others here have commented with others about the crappy state of many "Catholic schools." We like to give Steven grief about not paying attention, but that's because he's him. So please don't think that we think you weren't seriously trying to learn when you were in school.

Catholic schools and catechism everywhere are often horrible. This is a consequence of the battle going on (always?) within the Church itself. As the Church fights against evil elements in the world, these same elements root into the Church Herself. There is a battle between good and evil going on in the world and inside the Church Herself. This is not an excuse, but it helps to explain the horrible state of Catholic teaching. It is on purpose and it is by folks who wish to destroy the Church from within.

The rest of the comments on the survey are as follows. It is true to a very large extent that what the actual folks "in the pews" believe is what the Church believes. It is also true that there is a written belief found in the catechism and other sources. In ideal times thay would be indentical, these are not those times. So you look to the common Catholics in this survey (we don't even know if these are even churchgoing Catholics) and find very strange and sad views.

I concur that it is bad news, but it means that the Church must begin teaching the Truth it has in its writings, so that the lay people have a better grasp of what their Catholicism is really all about.

This survey marks a clear contrast for our bishops to consider. God grant us some men with backbones.

SD

[OLD REGGIE]

The Catholic Church will probably be the last to ever allow female priests or deacons (but probably never will). Hmmm ... I guess the CC does know what the bible says afterall, doesn't it? ;o)

Do you, then, accept all of Paul's letters as Gospel?

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

SD, why would it be so bad for Mary to have had children after Jesus? Marriage and sex are not wrong in God's eyes,

Becky

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Wow! What translation of the bible are you reading?

Ah. Sorry Al. I thought you were talkin' about Romans 1 and upon further review you were talkin' about Romans 2. Here's that stuff from Romans 1 in case you're curious.

1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.

[SoothingDave]

Still, am I to understand you accept only the "underlying original Latin"? IOW. Is Jerome your guru?

The Church has made use of the best texts available to make more modern translations, like the NAB. So I don't think I have to believe in the Latin as the "original." I am more than happy to speak to the underlying Greek texts. I was just making a joke. Honest.

SD

[JohnnyM]

"You fail to see that the blood of Christ atones for the sins of all."

Christ died for all, but they can only receive salvation if they accept it. They have to recieve it. If I have a 100 dollars in my hand that I give to you free of charge. It is only yours once you accept it. You do not have it until you accept it. Everyone has access to salvation, they need only to receive it.

Romans 5:15-21
"But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord"

JM

[SoothingDave]

That James was a human relative of Jesus.

No, it says: brother according to the flesh, not relative according to the flesh.

And what exactly does the word we now translate into English as "brother" mean to a Semitic people?

SD

[SoothingDave]

I don't see why you're pushing so hard to get assent to the term "theotokos." I think that makes them doubt your agenda.

Bass, it could be a basis of agreement between us. They could say "those crazy Catholics may have overdone it, but the basic idea is true."

They could affirm at least one of our Mary teachings as being both Biblical and sensical.

SD

[Iowegian]

And what exactly does the word we now translate into English as "brother" mean to a Semitic people?

For these verses: "From the same womb", as the context shows.

[SoothingDave]

SD, why would it be so bad for Mary to have had children after Jesus? Marriage and sex are not wrong in God's eyes,

No they are not wrong, but rather a participation in Creation. Nevertheless, Mary did not have other children. Mary was a spotless vessel to hold God Incarnate. Havoc would object, but I would not use something which God had touched for an ordinary use.

SD

[JHavard]

"Jesus is God
Mary is the Mother of Jesus"
Both statements are correct.
Therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

Some people don't know logic.

....................................................

"Fleetwood is a Cadillac"

"Chevy truck carried Fleetwood to dealership"

Both statements are correct.

Therefore Chevy truck is a Cadillac

Some people just don't know a truck from a Cadillac.(*g*)

[SoothingDave]

For these verses: "From the same womb", as the context shows.

What context? The stuff Reggie posted?

SD

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL even harder!!! let's appear united, huh Dave, can't stand to see catholic caught looking, well you know. Sorry, i'm not really laughing in a mean way, it just struck me funny, it's so predictable. sorry for the no caps, i just burned my thumb pretty bad burning a brush pile am typing one handed to keep ice on it. hurts like h--l

becky

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

lol becky

[OLD REGGIE]

". . . For also JAMES, THE BROTHER, ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, OF CHRIST OUR GOD, to whom the throne of the church of Jerusalem first was

What does this mean to you?

That James was a human relative of Jesus.

I had a discussion with my cat today. He pretended he was listening, stuck his tail straight up in the air, put his ass in my face, and walked off. I'm going to change his name to SoothingDave.

[SoothingDave]

"Fleetwood is a Cadillac"
"Chevy truck carried Fleetwood to dealership"

Both statements are correct. Therefore Chevy truck is a Cadillac

Keep your day job. Here is the analogy you are drawing, which we ain't:

Jesus is God (Cadillac)
Mary (chevy) Carried God (Cadillac)
Therefore, Mary is God

Here is what you are saying:

Jesus is God (Cadillac)
Mary(Chevy) carried Jesus(Cadillac)
Therefore, in no way can a Chevy carry a Cadillac.

SD

[Iowegian]

What context?

The entire Biblical record, taken together in context, including Steven's favorite verse. The evidence is overwhelming, if you didn't have a stake in the question, you would see it too, IMO. Protestants do not have a stake in the outcome (we don't have a doctrine either way on the matter), we just search the Scriptures as we were told to do.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

if they are not wrong why would that make her not spotless. once God had completed his purpose with her why would it be wrong for her t have childdern with her husband. joseph is the one to be made a saint if that is the case. becky

[SoothingDave]

let's appear united, huh Dave, can't stand to see catholic caught looking, well you know.

I'm sorry Becky. I guess I just can't communicate anymore. I thought I addressed your concerns, confessed that Catholic teaching sucks and absolved you for any blame in not being taught better. Then I wished for better leaders in the Church, so they would teach more truly to the people.

What did you think I said?

SD