The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
TNS Archives

[OLD REGGIE]

The translation of kecharitomene into "Highly favored one" does not even begin to do the Greek justice, IMO. Even Jerome's translation, "full of grace", while superior to "Highly favored one", doesn't convey the full force of kecharitomene.

Since I don't read Greek I don't have to rely on MHO. Instead, I look to Scripture. I find no reference to Mary as "full of grace" in any versions available to me except Douay-Rheims. Without exception, all modern versions, including the NAB, use different language.

For example; NAB=" "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."

Once again, in my ignorance, I must look to Scripture. If you are more qualified than all modern authorities, so be it.

[Iowegian]

The easiest way to go to a page that does not have a link is to change the URL at the top where it says page=1511 or whatever number to the post number where you want to go to, then "go" on your browser and it takes you directly there.

[RobbyS]

If hatefulness doesn't characterize everything that Havoc says about Catholicism I don't know what does. I guess he is trying the old "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach now, but he has tried to tar many things I hold sacred, and I will not have it.

[OLD REGGIE]

Can I be the first to tell you that "full of Grace" doesn't mean the same thing when it pertains to Stephen. I can't explain why, I just wanted to be the first one to tell you. :-)

How right you are. See #1537, dignan3. Sadly, I don't give a damn what St. Jerome says, I don't care what dignan3 says, I just care what Scripture says.

Incidentally, modern RCC "approved" Bibles don't even use the term "full of grace" in regards to Mary. But, what the hell do they know.

[Pelayo]

Was it Zechari'ah? It certainly wasn't Mary.

Oh yes it was and you know it. The Word is Jesus, and Jesus was first made known to the mother. And that mother "kept all these things, pondering them in her heart." Zechari'ah did not believe when he heard, so he was made mute to make sure that John would be the name of his son. Now did Mary believe when she heard? Or like Zechari'ah was she made mute?

[hopefulpilgrim]

kecharitomene

My lexicon says that this is a feminine PASSIVE participle from the verb, charitoo ("caret-ah-oh") meaning, in the active voice, to make [someone] an object of favour, to gift [someone]. IN THE PASSIVE VOICE, to be an object of a gracious visitation or to be visited with free favour. My comment: No emphasis is placed on the character of the person visited; instead, the emphasis is on the disposition of the visitor.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Rats, JH---that is what I have been doing, and I was hoping someone would give me a shortcut!!!! I wish there were a little box in which to type a reply # and a "fetch" button to push, so that voila!

[hopefulpilgrim]

Hoodyraydums for Iowegian!!! Thank you, sir.

[OLD REGGIE]

If hatefulness doesn't characterize everything that Havoc says about Catholicism I don't know what does. I guess he is trying the old "hate the sin but love the sinner" approach now, but he has tried to tar many things I hold sacred, and I will not have it.

"Hate" is a favorite word with professional Apologists. You fall into the same propaganda trap. "Holler the same thing long enough, and loud enough and you'll find some who believe it." As a matter of fact, the manner in which you use the word is, IMO hateful.

My take on Havoc's view to Roman Catholicism: Incredulity.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

I enjoyed the comments you both made on the security of the believer. I believe that this issue has not been dealt with at length because of a desire on the part of the "Protestants" (I just hate that term:) here to appear united. But I feel this is not being true to God, we should never be afraid to take a stand on something we truly believe.

Having said that let me say that the security of the believer is what brings such absolute peace in our hearts to face what ever comes our way. When we understand that God is fighting our battles, God is the one holding on to us not us holding on to him we can be absolutly sure of salvation. Psa. 37: 23-24 The steps of a good man are ordered by the Lord: and he delighteth in his way Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the Lord upholds him with his hand..

[OLD REGGIE]

Oh yes it was and you know it. The Word is Jesus, and Jesus was first made known to the mother. And that mother "kept all these things, pondering them in her heart." Zechari'ah did not believe when he heard, so he was made mute to make sure that John would be the name of his son. Now did Mary believe when she heard? Or like Zechari'ah was she made mute?

----------------------------------------------------------- Let's look at Zechari'ah's "disbelief":

Luke 1: 18 And Zechari'ah said to the angel, "How shall I know this? For I am an old man, and my wife is advanced in years."
19 And the angel answered him, "I am Gabriel, who stand in the presence of God; and I was sent to speak to you, and to bring you this good news.

20 And behold, you will be silent and unable to speak until the day that these things come to pass, because you did not believe my words, which will be fulfilled in their time."

Now, lets see Mary's "belief":

29 But she was greatly troubled at the saying, and considered in her mind what sort of greeting this might be.
30 And the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God.
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David,
33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."
34 And Mary said to the angel, "How shall this be, since I have no husband?"

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You tell me, just when did Mary believe. What is the difference between her "belief" and his "disbelief"?

[Iowegian]

The big difference is that Zacheriah was the acting High Priest in the temple of the Lord and Mary was a young girl. The High Priest should be mature and spiritual enough to accept the message from God unquestionably under these circumstances, while with Mary, given her immaturity and situation, it was more understandable of her to ask questions. The High Priest's responsiblities are far greater than Mary's.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Remember the "Once Saved Always Saved" thread last Jan/Feb.? Ewwww, that got bitter, and everyone held tenaciously to his/her own church's or personal views. Not a pretty sight. But it did have the effect of causing some of us to learn why we believe what we believe. But, man--the name-calling and so forth. It was nasty. Words were not "always gracious, seasoned, as it were, with salt." Several were downright hateful.

Still, I'd like hearing what Mitch has to say about how important he believes the assurance of our salvation to be.

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

LOL, sounds like it wasn't much different then the Neverending Story. There have been days here when one or the other of us seems to be PMSing (men includied:). We seem to be maturing though, we're getting better and better and agreeing to disagree:).

Becky

[OLD REGGIE]

The big difference is that Zacheriah was the acting High Priest in the temple of the Lord and Mary was a young girl. The High Priest should be mature and spiritual enough to accept the message from God unquestionably under these circumstances, while with Mary, given her immaturity and situation, it was more understandable of her to ask questions. The High Priest's responsiblities are far greater than Mary's.

I'm not arguing this point at all. It isn't relevant to Pelayo's question:

"Now did Mary believe when she heard? Or like Zechari'ah was she made mute?"

Zechari'ah also believed, though not immediately, and he did so before Mary did. Pelayo inferrs that Mary would also have been made mute if she didn't believe.

[al_c]

Mac's are really a different world and you may be crossing a gulf larger than and Catholic/Protestant divide. How did you get involved in such a cult?

Let's see ... I'm Catholic, a Cowboy's fan, and a Mac user. Seems we're just going to disagree about everything. ;o)

ALL:

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Saturday, October 20, 2001
Saint Paul of the Cross, priest - Optional Memorial

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

Romans 4:13, 16-18 Psalms 105:6-9, 42-43 Luke 12:8-12 When you feel the assaults of passion and anger, then is the time to be silent as Jesus was silent in the midst of His ignominies and sufferings.   -- St. Paul of the Cross

From wau.org ...

When he wanted to give the believers in Rome an example of faith, Paul turned, almost naturally, to Abraham. This revered figure from Israel's ancient history listened when God spoke to him and, despite his doubts, did what God asked of him. When God told him to uproot his family and go to a strange land, Abraham did it. At God's request, he was even willing to sacrifice his long-awaited son.

God responded to Abraham's persevering faith by showering grace on him. Did Abraham earn this reward? Not at all. Even his faith was a work of grace. Grace is overflowing for those who believe, but it is a free gift from God that encompasses all God's gifts. It is mercy and generosity and power to overcome. It is by grace that we receive redemption in Christ, and it is by grace that the Holy Spirit enters our hearts and empowers us to live a life dedicated and obedient to God.

How easy it is to believe that Christianity is a life of giving--of striving to be good enough and selfless enough to merit God's favor. But just the opposite is true! The grace that God wants to shower on us each day comes to us as we learn to receive. Only then, assisted by grace, can we give in return by being good or giving of ourselves to others.

Will you be facing some difficult situation today? A trying incident at work, maybe, or a harried time at home? If you do, try to pause in the midst of it to invite the Lord into that situation and into your heart. Surrender to him and ask for his grace. By his grace, you can be an overcomer--loving the unlovable, denying selfish desires, saying "no" to the world's allurements, and receiving the guidance and strength you need.

The Lord once told Paul, "My grace is sufficient for you" (2 Corinthians 12:9). The same is true for us today. We can draw near to God and pursue a journey of hope and victory through the promise which is ours in Christ Jesus our Lord.

"Father of all grace and favor, I praise and thank you for letting me come into your presence each day. You have given me what prophets and kings longed to know and could only glimpse from afar. How good and generous and merciful you are!"

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Have a great day, everybody!

[IMRight]

Let's see ... I'm Catholic, a Cowboy's fan, and a Mac user. Seems we're just going to disagree about everything. ;o)

We agree that you are Catholic, a Cowboy's fan and a Mac user (not that there's anything wrong with that - but I can get you into a 12-step program for the Mac thing).

BTW - my old KOC card says I'm Catholic too.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Happy Macintosh user??---me too. It's the only thing I know since my big brother got it for me---he's REALLY the Macintosh devotee.

[OLD REGGIE]

It's from the New American Bible, the newest modern Catholic translation. Go to newadvent.org and they have it and Douay Rheims there.

I went to that site, and unless I did something wrong, I was under the impression they were willing to sell me one.

Here are some good free sites:

My favorite: (Excellent search features)

BIBLE GATEWAY

For DOUAY-RHEIMS: DOUAY-RHEIMS

For NAB: NAB

[hopefulpilgrim]

Edifying devotional today. Thanks!