The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[Invincibly Ignorant]

What follows is a pure cut and paste. I submit it because it sounds reasonable to this poor slob. Starting with Clement, the bishop of Alexandria (150 - 215 CE), who confirms in Outlines, Bk. VI, "Peter, James (bar Zebedee) and John, after the ascension of the Saviour, did not claim pre-eminence because the Saviour had especially honored them, but chose James the Righteous as Bishop of Jerusalem." .Eusebius (263 - 339 CE), Historia Ecclesia ii,23.4: ".....turned their attention to James, the Lord's brother, who had been elected by the apostles to the episcopal throne at Jerusalem." Hmmmm! That's funny, Eusebius seems to agree with Clement. Hegesippus (c. 100 - 160 CE), Bk 5: "Control of the Church passed to the Apostles, together with the Lord's brother James...." Now Hegesippus was a first generation member of the Jerusalem Assembly of Jesus’ disciples and family. He knew the folks.....how could he have gotten so confused?? Origen (185 - 254 CE), quoting early Josephus: "These things happened to the Jews in requital for James the Righteous, who was a brother of Jesus, known as Christ." Josephus (37 - c. 100 CE), Antiquities xx: "So he assembled a counsel of judges and brought before it James, the brother of Jesus, known as Christ." Clement: "When James the Righteous had suffered martyrdom like the Lord and for the same reason, Symeon, the son of his Uncle Clopas, was appointed bishop. He being a cousin of the Lord." Eusebius: "A group of heretics accused the descendants of Jude...the brother, humanly speaking, of the Savior...on the ground that they were of David's line and related to Christ himself." The brother, HUMANLY SPEAKING???? Now what do you suppose he meant by that?? Hegesippus: "...and these still survived of the Lord's family, the grandsons of Jude, who was said to be His brother, humanly speaking." Luke: Acts 1:14 "These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women and Mary the mother (MHTHR) of Jesus and with his brothers (ADELFOI)." The Greek usage (in parentheses) that LUKE so"incorrectly" used, just to confuse all of us, is mine. ----------------------------------------------------------- Go here for full argument. In any event, do any of you suppose you can show just when "Perpetual Virginity" became an issue in the Church?

Arent these the people that usually support their argument? How they gonna respond to this?

[Uri’el-2012]

That Elohim is singular in meaning is clear from the fact that the verb for "created" (bara) in Genesis 1:1 is singular.

Thank you. Now I understand; It is syntactically plural but the verb action is singular.

---

Now for the second question :

2) I want to draw your attention to the un-translated aleph and tau between "G-d"and "the heaven"
in Genesis 1:1

This also occurs in Zechariah 12:10 Where there is an un-translated aleph and tau
between "look on me" and "whom they have pierced"

Tehillim (Psalm) 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock, that God Most High was their Redeemer

XeniaSt

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Well, since the Holy Spirit is God, she is then His Spouse and not permitted to have sexual relations with anyone . Therefore, since she conceived virginally, she remained "ever virgin".Speaking of relationships, Mary was the daughter of God the Father, mother of God the Son, and Spouse of God the Holy Spirit . There is no chapter and verse, this is "logic"

What folly.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

This point illustrates the need to have a touchstone, a guide, for understanding Scripture as it has always been understood. It is too easy to go off the wrong track.

If your catholic church (noun) is guiding you to take this position, its not doin' ya any favors.

[dadwags]

#1364
Mary was the daughter of God the Father .
I should have explained that,since she is a creature, created by God the father, she is his daughter, in exactly the same way that we all are sons and daughters of god the father .
I thought all Christians and Jews knew that .

[Havoc]

Think of it this way, if you had a cloth or napkin that Jesus used to wipe the sweat from his brow, would you use it to clean up the table? To wash dishes with? Or would His having contacted it make it "special"? Something dedicated as sacred is not then used for mundane purposes.

Sorry, I'd wash my dishes with it. He used it for his purpose and for it's purpose. So to should I. And I would for a reason. God created everything we see. Who cares if he touched a rag when he created the fibers that made it?! It isn't any more special than a rose bush. And it has no power, no authority and deserves no adoration. My Lord deserves the adoration. Not a lump of cloth. And wiping one's brow doesn't dedicate the usage as sacred. Oh, wait, I suppose you'd reverence yourself befor his discarded toilet paper too - or perhaps a bit of sacred fecal matter? Oh the horror.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I take you just skim over Luke. That does fit your Christology, which is skim-milk.

I take it you skim over most of the Bible. That fits your catholisism which doesn't honor the Word much.

[Iowegian]

I should have explained that,since she is a creature, created by God the father, she is his daughter, in exactly the same way that we all are sons and daughters of god the father .

Then why mention it, since it doesn't prove anything? Why are so overzealous to give her more titles? How many is enough for you? Give Jesus, the Son of God and the reason for our salvation all the titles (He deserves them). Then the rest will take care of itself.

[dadwags]

1374
Yes, Luke,Chapter 1 "Hail,Full of Grace"
One who has sin is NOT "Full or Grace"(or even "Highly Favored")

[Havoc]

One would not even think of desecrating the holy vessel which held God Incarnate with mere human contents. That's the spiritual significance.

Desecration would be to mistreat and trash Mary. We are all to be holy vessels. And the Spirit of the Lord is with all Christians. Yet Christians cohabitate and beget offspring every day. Sex is not an unholy thing. If it were, it would be against the Laws of God to continue the species. Sex is a special thing between two mates. And it is reserved for those who join together before God as husband and wife. The ark of the covenant talk is overboard to say the least. We are all temples of the Lord. Did the Lord God not inhabit his temple of old? Ya'll are so hung up on glorius appearance that you miss all the substance and seek for it in meaningless philosophy and logic instead of seeking it in God. There are more powerful and useful things in God than you'll ever find in logic and philosophy.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I'm hopin Old Reggie's 1368 post gets responded to. Can't wait to hear about why you disagree with all your heroes of the faith.

[Iowegian]

One who has sin is NOT "Full or Grace"(or even "Highly Favored")

Actually, it is only those who sin who need grace and a Savior. Christ was the perfect sinless sacrifice. And the only perfect and sinless human. Mary herself contradicts you: Luke chapter 1:46-47

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

[Havoc]

Arent these the people that usually support their argument? How they gonna respond to this?

This must be one of those examples when all these people *are* suddenly *unauthoritative*. Give 'em ten threads after the beginnings of tearing these reliable sources apart and trashing them in whatever fashion they can and they'll be heralding them again as authoritative. LOL. No shame and no sense.

[Invincibly Ignorant]

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Excellent point Iowegian. The evidence is overwhelming.

[Havoc]

And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.

Amen, Brother! A sinless soul needs none to ransom them from their sin. Major OOPs isn't it. LOL

[IMRight]

Think of it this way, if you had a cloth or napkin that Jesus used to wipe the sweat from his brow, would you use it to clean up the table? To wash dishes with? Or would His having contacted it make it "special"? Something dedicated as sacred is not then used for mundane purposes.

Sorry, I'd wash my dishes with it. He used it for his purpose and for it's purpose. So to should I. And I would for a reason. God created everything we see. Who cares if he touched a rag when he created the fibers that made it?! It isn't any more special than a rose bush. And it has no power, no authority and deserves no adoration. My Lord deserves the adoration. Not a lump of cloth. And wiping one's brow doesn't dedicate the usage as sacred. Oh, wait, I suppose you'd reverence yourself befor his discarded toilet paper too - or perhaps a bit of sacred fecal matter? Oh the horror.

I believe you'll find in Matt 9&14 and in Mark 6 that just touching the hem of His garment could heal. I doubt you will find a "rose bush" able to do that (your irreverence following that comment is beneath you and is pointedly ignored).

It is true that God created everything we see, but you reduce the appearently sacred until it is equal with the otherwise normal instead of elevating the normal to recognize it's sacred nature. Let's take a less obvious example: If Christ Himself were physically walking down the streets of your neighborhood (ignoreing any 2nd coming implications), would you say "I have my Bible which is His Word and He is the Word. I don't need to go see Him in person - He is everywhere"? I doubt that you would. And that's a comparison between two objects much closer in nature than a hypothetical item touched by Jesus and "a lump of cloth".

[Iowegian]

I believe you'll find in Matt 9&14 and in Mark 6 that just touching the hem of His garment could heal. I doubt you will find a "rose bush" able to do that...

No, you totally missed Havoc's point. The object didn't heal and can't heal. Only God through our faith can. You misplace the act of God to an object thus taking something holy, like a miracle from God and corrupting it to a "magic act" by attributing it to a mere object (even a man-made object!).

[IMRight]

Read the accounts again. I believe one of them has Jesus refering to the women's faith, but the faith refered to appears to be that merely touching the hem of His garment would heal her. There can be no doubt that it is always Jesus who "supplies the power" if you will, but God has always used inanimate objects that represent Him or some aspect of Him to exhibit his power (The ark comes to mind).

I think you will also find examples in Scripture of people who were healed without faith (or because of the faith of others). We should not try place limits on the Lord by trying to fit Him into logical boxes that we can grasp with our human wisdom.

It has always amazed me that some people would rather have a football jersey that was sweated in by some million dollar jock than a new jersey (worth more unwashed of course), but fail to understand a desire to be in the presense of the sacred. If you visit the Holy Land (wear a bullet-proof vest) would you not be in total awe of actually walking on ground that you know your Savior tread? (maybe that's an advantage the Mormons have over us... they think he came here in the flesh, so they can save on travel costs:o)

[mitch5501]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here but since this is a christian thread and I'm a christian I'm gonna anyway 8-)

Forgive me for not entering the discussion you all are having....it looks a little painfull.

I first read the Bible as an atheist,this is now what stands out to me after many years...

Isaiah 46:9-10 "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure"

Isaiah 50:2 "...Is my hand shortened at all, that it cannot redeem? or have I no power to deliver?

Isaiah 46:3-4 "Hearken unto me, O house of Jacob, and all the remnant of the house of Israel, which are borne by me from the belly, which are carried from the womb:And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you."

Isaiah 55:10-11 "For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

John 6:28-29 "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

John 6:63 "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life"

Acts 20:32 "And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified"

Mark 5:36 "Be not afraid, only believe"

Mark 9:24 "Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief"

Hebrews 13:5 "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee"

1st John 5:18 "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not"

1st John 5:13 "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God"

Romans 8:15 "For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father."

1st John 2:12 "I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake."

Romans 8:33 "Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth."

Hebrews 4:16 "Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need."

Luke 12:32 "Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom."

Revelation 21:7 "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."

1st John 5:5 "who is this that overcometh the world but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"

1st John 3:1 "Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God...."

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

God bless all and God bless America

ps would love to discuss these verses...especially 1 John 5:13...as I believe it finishes the salvation by grace/works issue.

[IMRight]

I suspected that the mistake was largely that the poster assumed that the point supported the Catholic position on Mary (It did, but not convincingly) and therefore the statement must be false.

I would claim that the statement is true but does not bear directly on the discussion at hand.

I further suspect that there is a natural Protestant propensity to avoid such items. Let's face it... During the medieval period, there were supposed "sacred relics" floating all over Europe (just about every town had the "finger bone of the apostle Paul" or some such) most of which could not possibly be accurate. Such adoration could come much closer to actual idolatry than any icons or artwork you may find offensive today.