The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[malakhi]

What is the prize that goes to the "victor" of these arguments?

Didn't you know? A jar of Mel's Giant N.Y. Sour Dill Pickles.

Can't these subjects be discussed in a more friendly manner?

Seriously, I agree with you. The tone has gotten rather rancorous this week, what with some from both sides accusing the others of being misled by Satan and all. C'mon, folks, some civility please?

[SoothingDave]

The Bible never says in so many words "Mary carried God in her womb" but we can say it by deduction.

The Bible had no need to say such stupid things.

Stupid things? Stupid things?

OK, let's go over this again. Jesus is God. Mary is Jesus' mother. Ergo, Mary had God in her womb.

Which of the two statements do you not believe? Was Jesus not born of woman, or was Jesus not God?

SD

[malakhi]

Especially, James the "brother of the Lord" was alive in 49 AD (Gal 1:19). He should have taken care of her.

Gotta agree with you on this allend. The commandment to "honor your mother and father" specifically was interpreted to include providing for them in their old age.

[the808bass]

After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once... (1Cor 15:6)

Context provides the definition of the words, not vice versa. So, the burden would seem to be upon the people who read the Matthew passage as speaking of his non-nuclear-family relatives. To be as succint as possible, the question is: Why would the townspeople try to point out Jesus' humble origins by saying "Hey, that's just Jesus. We know who his mom and his cousins are?"

The meaning that most people would take from a plain reading is that they list Mary, his mother, and his siblings. As for SoothingDave's argument that we know these people's real parents from other Scripture he would have to establish that the people being spoken of here are indeed the ones we know by the same names elsewhere.

[the808bass]

I liked dadwags defense from ebonics better.

[Havoc]

And you yourself said you stopped doing portraits. I'm sorry I even asked what you do do art about. You could forget we are mortal enemies and just answer. Don't most artists like to talk about their work?

Tongue in cheek sarcasm doesn't seem to agree with you today. Ya'll think that bowing and praying to a statue is no big deal because one is really routing that to the person the statue represents. Do you not understand that is precisely what Idols are used for, to get to that which the idol represents? I state the commandment against creating idols, and point to the laws against communing with the dead and you guys want to make the issue about anything but the truth. If the word said "don't pick up a petros and throw it at anyone" You'd make a doctrine that allowed the picking up of a large lithos. So by not using the same word, you think you step around the issue. God isn't stupid that he should let ya'll do such things without an answering. It may be in His time; but, don't delude yourselves. There will be an answering.

[SoothingDave]

To be as succint as possible, the question is: Why would the townspeople try to point out Jesus' humble origins by saying "Hey, that's just Jesus. We know who his mom and his cousins are?"

Why not? "Who does this guy think he is? Isn't he Mary's boy? Don't we know all his family?"

The point is that this kid ain't something special. His cousin married my barber's daughter. They ain't special, they're just garden variety first century Hebrews.

Imagine if you saw someone on TV claiming to be a prophet. Wouldn't you turn to your wife and say "Hey didn't your brother use to date his cousin?" And then scoff.

(There could also be an argument made from the use of the phrase the son of Mary as opposed to a sonof Mary, but I don't know the Greek or Hebrew behind the phrasing.)

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Matthew 12;46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. 47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Jesus could have been speaking in this context when he told John to take care of his mother at the cross. I'll go by the story in the Bible, you can have your "catholic answers" link.

[the808bass]

As to faith alone, I found this rather long section in the Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers.

Here's the link

I don't think this will fit your definition of "faith alone" (could it be that a similar problem exists in how Catholics define faith alone and scripture alone?), however I found the description of faith vs. works and law vs. grace to be very amenable to this Protestant. More to come...

[OLD REGGIE]

"Is not this the carpenter's son? Is not his mother called Mary? And his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? And his sisters, are they not all with us?" (Mt. 13:55-56). Mary was very busy and had a lot more than these few children, didn't she?

After that He was seen by over five hundred brethren at once... (1Cor 15:6)

And that doesn't even include all his sisters.

------------------------------------------------------------

Which Bible are you using? I can find the common usage of "Brethren" in the KJV and Douay-Rheims. All modern "approved" versions use "Brother" in Matt 13:55.

Let's look a little closer at Matt. 13:

54 Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked.

55 "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?

56 Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"
=====================================

Coming to his hometown there were so few "brothers" in his hometown that they could be named individually???

They could not, of course, have been among these hometown "brothers"?????? Who were they then, sisters or strangers who just happened to visit the synagogue?

As for 1 Corinthians, read all of it for context, then twist it to imply "brethren" or "brothers" are used in the same way as in Matthew 13. Good job!

[SoothingDave]

Don't most artists like to talk about their work?

Tongue in cheek sarcasm doesn't seem to agree with you today. Ya'll think that blahblahblahblahblahblahblahblah but, don't delude yourselves. There will be an answering.

I take that as a "no."

I could have sworn (I know, swearing is bad too) that you were at least implying yesterday that making an image of anything was against the 2nd Commandment. I could have sworn you said you stopped doing portraits because of this. I could have sworn that others and myself asked you what you do your art about if you aren't allowed to represent anything. I could have sworn I asked you to clarify all this.

I must be dreaming.

SD

[Invincibly Ignorant]

They're playing games with scriputre again.

[SoothingDave]

Coming to his hometown there were so few "brothers" in his hometown that they could be named individually??? They could not, of course, have been among these hometown "brothers"?????? Who were they then, sisters or strangers who just happened to visit the synagogue?

Reggie I don't think anybody is arguing that just any old person from Jesus' hometown is being called a "Brother" of him in this context. The use of "Brother" in this setting is to refer to (pay attention now) related people, that is "kin," who are not actually sprung from the same uterus.

Please stop arguing against this "hometowners=brothers" strawman.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Jesus could have been speaking in this context when he told John to take care of his mother at the cross. I'll go by the story in the Bible, you can have your "catholic answers" link.

I knew you could do it! Thanks for contributing something, some idea, besides just mocking Catholics. You are certainly free to interpret this in this way, but it goes against what I would consider a plain reading.

SD

[the808bass]

Therefore I ought flint to show that the faith by which we are Christians is the gift of God if I can do that more thoroughly than I have already done in so many and so large volumes.

Nicene and Post-Nicene Volume V, Augustine, First Book, Chapter 3.

I quoted just a tiny bit from this long treatise against the Pelagians, but again, this Protestant didn't have a problem with the writing. More to come...

[Invincibly Ignorant]

So were the Peter and Andrew real brothers or just kin?

[Invincibly Ignorant]

I knew you could do it! Thanks for contributing something, some idea, besides just mocking Catholics. You are certainly free to interpret this in this way, but it goes against what I would consider a plain reading.

I know what ya mean. Like I believe your interpretation goes against the plain meaning in matthew 1;25. :-)