The Neverending Story (The New Christian Chronicles)

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

Thread 162
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[NATE4"ONE NATION"]

I echo all your criticisms of the modern church hence my vision for a new one. More personnal and based on study, less "preaching".
I am having a hard time matching your belief, or at least desire, for an authoritative church with the completion of the New Covenant.
I don't see one as being consistant with the other. Are you sure you are not searching in vain, my friend?

[vmatt]

In case someone hasn't already pointed it out: "Word" is translated from "logos" which has quite a different meaning and depth than what we think of when we say "word" as in spoken word.

I understand. I was driving the point that this is a difficult verse, care must be exercised with verses like this. You cannot ignore or improperly weigh a verse like this in light of many other clearer ones. Jesus brought the words of God his Father to us. He absolutley did not pray or mediate to himself. He thought it not robbery to be equal with God. That would make him a God.

[vmatt]

I echo all your criticisms of the modern church hence my vision for a new one. More personnal and based on study, less "preaching".

I too have a vision of POWER in the church and I think I know how to do it. Let's team up and see what happens. We can't do worse.

I am having a hard time matching your belief, or at least desire, for an authoritative church with the completion of the New Covenant.

When exactly was it complete?

I don't see one as being consistant with the other. Are you sure you are not searching in vain, my friend?

No, friend, I do not.

[Serb5150]

dang...
still an impressive number, though=)

[OLD REGGIE]

BTW, does this all mean you admit Foxes is not history?

Why ask me? I have never read it and don't intend to. I'll not admit anything I never claimed in the first place.

[JohnnyM]

"The Word was with GOD and the Word was A GOD."

I like how you add words to the Scripture there to make it fall into your view point. The text does not say A God, it says God. You are the one who is so desperate for truth, but yet reject the simple truth of this passage of Scripture. The Word was WITH God, that same Word WAS God, and that same Word BECAME flesh. There is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. 3 Persons, 1 God. Not 3 Gods. Not 2 Gods.

Duet 4:35
"To you it was shown that you might know that the LORD, He is God; there is no other besides Him"

Duet 4:39
"Know therefore today, and take it to your heart, that the LORD, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other"

Exodus 32:39
"See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me; It is I who put to death and give life. I have wounded and it is I who heal, And there is no one who can deliver from My hand."

Isaiah 43:10-12
"You are My witnesses,'' declares the LORD, "And My servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and believe Me And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me. I, even I, am the LORD, And there is no savior besides Me. It is I who have declared and saved and proclaimed, And there was no strange god among you; So you are My witnesses,'' declares the LORD, And I am God."

Isaiah 44:6-8
"Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel And his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me. Who is like Me? Let him proclaim and declare it; Yes, let him recount it to Me in order, From the time that I established the ancient nation. And let them declare to them the things that are coming And the events that are going to take place. Do not tremble and do not be afraid; Have I not long since announced it to you and declared it? And you are My witnesses. Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none."

Isaiah 45:5-6
"I am the LORD, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God. I will gird you, though you have not known Me; That men may know from the rising to the setting of the sun that there is no one besides Me. I am the LORD, and there is no other"

Now, if as you say, Christ was another God. A second God, then He would go against what God says in the Old Testatment. Besides Him there is no God. So if this is true, then Christ can't be a separate God.

JM

[OLD REGGIE]

Your "magic" is my "miraculous healing." Same with the healing of Christ. Exactly the same. Your animosity towards the Catholic Church blinds you.

The Apostles went out and used oil (annointing) to heal the sick. Is this "magic" as well?

Jesus is Lord. Of course he healed.

Jesus gave the gift of healing to the Apostles. Not Mary, not anyone else.

Matthew 10:
1 And he called to him his twelve disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal every disease and every infirmity.
2 The names of the twelve apostles are these: first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zeb'edee, and John his brother;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus;

[nobdysfool]

No reasonable person can believe this. You get two awards in one day!

vmatt, just because your mind can't wrap itself around it, doesn't make it wrong. God is one God, in three manifestations, or persons, as some put it. He has three distinct modes of operation: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. But he is still ONE. A crude but effective analogy would be that (and this assumes the following: you're married and have a child) You are father to your child, son to your Father, and husband to your wife. You aren't three seperate people, you're one person, but you are seen and function in three distinct modes. Get it?

[OLD REGGIE]

This is what happens when you don't have Tradition or an authority to help you read Scripture. You miss things that are there. For instance, the only evidence against perpetual virginity is tenuous, at best. Scripture seems to argue against it, but only if you read the Bible in the original English with no conception of the peoples or language as used by them at that time.

The IC and the Assumption are implicit in the entire idea of the Incarnation. While standing outside and throwing rocks and demanding explicit texts, you will never see them. But that is OK, as your 50 year vendetta rolls on.

Supreme spin. Is this history? You never addressed the question of Tradition. Scriptural Tradition ended with the Apostles. When does your Tradition begin and end. You hang your hat on "authority" because, when all else fails, it is all you have. It is the be all and end all tool used by the RCC. It is a false tool. I suspect, in your more lucid moments you know it too.

[Iowegian]

The answer of course, is Christ, before Christ came in the flesh as Jesus.

Christ was God and always has been and he became flesh. That's what John is trying to tell you, "GOD WITH US" in the flesh, aka the Incarnation. It doesn't fit your theology, because your theology is wrong, unless John was wrong. I'll take John over vmatt.

[nobdysfool]

And I suspect if you recognized Mary is the Mother of God, you would come to realize the Holy Spirit is Her Spouse. Then, you would recognize He, too, should be worshipped.

What kind of baloney is this??? That, my friend, is heresy! Joseph was Mary's husband. She was not betrothed to or wed to God. She was betrothed to Joseph, and after Christ was born, married to Joseph. There is absolutely NO scripture that in any way would even hint that Mary was God's "spouse" by any stretch of the imagination. NONE!

The Holy Spirit always directs us to and points to God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. The Holy Spirit does not receive worship, He directs it to God in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is in the earth today, in the hearts of believers. The Holy Spirit directs our attention to God in Heaven, the Father on the Throne, and Jesus at the right hand of the Father.

[nobdysfool]

Jesus gave the gift of healing to the Apostles. Not Mary, not anyone else.

Yes, He did that while He was here, and afterward made it possible for the church to continue those works, through the power of the Holy Spirit, by the gifts of the Spirit, detailed in 1 Cor. 12:7-11. Those gifts still operate today, every one of them. Why would gifts of healing cease, when there is still disease in the world today? Doesn't God care about that anymore? He was moved to compassion for the multitudes and healed them all while He was here. I don't think He says now, "Sorry about your luck, I don't do that anymore".

[OLD REGGIE]

"In your Church you don't need the New Testament. It would just get in the way. Why don't you just say it? The New Testament is worthless."

(BTW, if you're trying to become so offensive that I lose my cool, forget about it. You are this close to being sent to Coventry again.)

(This remark gave me a little jolt. My mother died in Coventry.) (Rhode Island).

You failed to make use of the proper "authority" to interpret my comment. In my post to RobbyS I bolded the word your to indicate it was his personal disdain toward the New Testament I was taking exception to. You should know very well when I refer to the RCC I make it very clear. Also, RobbyS is very capable of taking care of himself.

Says the Unitarian Universalist. Ha. Your Church will accept any balderdash that comes down the pike.

I suppose your statement wasn't meant to be offensive? I think you did lose your cool. That is ok. Hopefully you'll mellow out as you get older. If not, you'll really go through hell when your daughter is old enough to look at you with a blank stare, shrug her shoulders, and say SO?

[Iowegian]

Calvinists believe that nothing that man can choose is ever good, that every instinct is to the bad. I don't believe that.

Dave, you either don't understand the doctrine (which is scriptural) of total depravity or you are deliberately misrepresenting it to those who don't know about it. Here is the actual definition:

Total Depravity The doctrine that fallen man is completely touched by sin and that he is completely a sinner. He is not as bad as he could be, but in all areas of his being, body, soul, spirit, mind, emotions, etc., he is touched by sin. In that sense he is totally depraved. Because man is depraved, nothing good can come out of him (Rom. 3:10-12) and God must account the righteousness of Christ to him. This righteousness is obtainable only through faith in Christ and what He did on the cross. Total depravity is generally believed by the Calvinist groups and rejected by the Arminian groups.

Notice it doesn't say that everything we think and do is evil, but we are incapable of pleasing God (being righteous) without his working in us first.

Now if you persist in misrepresenting it we can come up with our own definitions of your doctrines and titles. Oh say like mother of God, for instance. I know how much that would please you. Please try to understand the real meaning of our doctrines before you make yourself look too foolish. And by the way, we don't just think pagans are totally depraved, all people are born that way. It's all in the Bible, check it out.

[AlguyA]

"Mary was never "married" to the Holy Spirit. God in the flesh does not mean God half egg half Spirit. Marriage was not included."

Which is why I didn't say the Holy Spirit is Her Husband. However, unless one is prepared to say Our Lord's conception was illegitimate, it MUST be the case that in some mystical way effected by God the Holy Spirit IS Her Spouse.

You are right, of course. God in the flesh does not mean God half egg half Spirit. It does mean, however, whole egg AND Whole God. The fertilized egg Mary carried was God. The embryo Mary carried was God. The zygot Mary carried was God. And the Baby she birthed was God.

You are correct, then, when you say, "Her honor of carrying and giving birth to Christ was unique, astonishing and necessary, but not worthy of worship."

Which is why I, and Catholics overall, don't worship Her in the way we worship God, but we do pay Her honor which is unique in recogniztion of the astonishing and necessary role she played in our salvation.

Thank you, by the way, for your thoughtful post.

nobodys fool, perhaps since you react so vehemently to my consideration of the Holy Spirit as Mary's Spouse, you could at least appreciate mine are just the attempts of a frail, finite human mind to explain a phenomenon deep in its mystical implications and recognize I simply prefer to contemplate the writings of Christian scholars over two thousand years to explain the Conception of Our Lord in terms which protect Him from charges of basterdy -charges which enemies of Christ have rarely failed to level.

If you have a formulation that is better, I would love to here it.

[JHavard]

I have seen many healings in my life also, but they were private and personal, with me and my family, but I still agree with Reggie, that the all encompassing power Christ gave to the disciples left when they died.

When they were alive, you were assured of a healing if you went to them, but who can you point to today and say they are being used by God to heal, and not just one out of ten, or after a year, but instantly.

I believe the reason the power was taken away at their death is because if a certain Church or group of people or a person could still perform all the miracles of the apostles today, you would know exactly where Christ Church was, and I don't think Christ wants any one Church to be looked on as the only true Church.

Also, if miracles identified the true followers of Christ, just think of how much more effective Satan could be at deceiving us through miracles.

[AlguyA]

The Holy Spirit does not receive worship, He directs it to God in Heaven. The Holy Spirit is in the earth today, in the hearts of believers.

I can only assume, then, that you, and what ever denomination to which you belong, reject the Nicean Creed formulated in 325 A.D. and is a shared basis of faith of both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches as well as many if not most Protestant denominations. Further, your writing would suggest you also reject a true Trinitarian conception of the Godhead and do not place the Holy Spirit on the same "spiritual level" as God the Father and God the Son. Is this correct?

[OLD REGGIE]

Other than that, did the Apostles offer up a prayer to her, did they ask her for any special favors, But they did ask for the sanction of her presence. Else why did Luke mention this?

Say that again. "they did ask for the sanction of her presence." I didn't read that. Chapter, Verse, and Version please.
------------------------------------------------------------

What wss Peter's share? To me if there is anything that the New Testament makes clear is that his share was the primacy. In the "cabinet" of the Twelve, he was premier.

No Apostle claimed anything more than equality with the others after, that is, Jesus rebuked them for arguing over it. Primacy does not come from the New Testament. In fact, it was several hundred years before that claim was made.

Luke 22:

24 A dispute also arose among them, which of them was to be regarded as the greatest.
25 And he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors.
26 But not so with you; rather let the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as one who serves.
27 For which is the greater, one who sits at table, or one who serves? Is it not the one who sits at table? But I am among you as one who serves.
28 "You are those who have continued with me in my trials;
29 and I assign to you, as my Father assigned to me, a kingdom,
30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

If Jesus was to assign Primacy this was the time.

[D-fendr]

The first part of the first Chapter of the Gospel of John is quite clear - as clear as possible within the limitations of language. When it is not clear to a reader, I'm not certain that the lack is necessarily in the writer.

It states the main theme of the gospel: light, life, truth, the incarnate Logos. Try it again.

[OLD REGGIE]

Yes, He did that while He was here, and afterward made it possible for the church to continue those works, through the power of the Holy Spirit, by the gifts of the Spirit, detailed in 1 Cor. 12:7-11. Those gifts still operate today, every one of them. Why would gifts of healing cease, when there is still disease in the world today? Doesn't God care about that anymore? He was moved to compassion for the multitudes and healed them all while He was here. I don't think He says now, "Sorry about your luck, I don't do that anymore".

Aw shucks. You may know I have always had a problem with Paul. On the other hand there is not much, if any, evidence of "healing" in this world today. Is there?