If Jesus was taking men out of the loop, then what was he trying to prove? That they can save themselves? how would that be taking them out of the loop?
In other words (smack! "Here's your sign"). We have the coined phrase "doubting Thomas" from the incident because he was too faithless and dense.
Havoc, what was it he would not believe? A miracle?
And the Magi were not seeking a sign, they saw one and responded.... They didn't seek a sign, they ran across it and were spiritually awake enough to discern it for what it was.
So was it still a sign or not?
Jesus took priests out of the loop. He himself became the priest offering himself to God as the perfect and last sacrifice. That was taking man out of the loop between us and God. There is no longer a middleman, God put himself in that gap. Priests were too busy screwing it up - as were the fleshly kings of Israel. God gave 'em both the boot and filled both positions himself.
And are you thinking about this.. I may not have fully clarified my statement earlier; but, using your logic, if one takes man out of the loop, how then can a question like, "That they can save themselves?" come into play? If they aren't in the loop, they couldn't possibly save themselves as they would be entirely hands off. That wasn't my argument and is not my argument. Are you reading the stuff or just being reactionary?
Havoc, what was it he would not believe? A miracle?
A miracle - no. It wasn't about a miracle, it was about whether Jesus was indeed risen. You have to seperate the two. Wrecking a car can be an accident but not every wreck is an accident nor every accident a wreck. The two can be the same and yet viewed seperately. This was about Jesus being the Messiah and fullfilling prophecy. Thomas was doubting a risen Messiah unless he could physically touch him. You're really fixated on miracles aren't you.
So was it still a sign or not?
So, yes it seems it is true, you are seeking appearance over substance. Never mind the facts. How can you make it look if you work hard enough at it and stretch and strain it for all its worth. Scripture either supports you or it doesn't. And here again it doesn't. Nothing personal; but, if you have to torture, stretch and break it to make it work, it isn't scripture, it's rigging. The duct tape betrays it.