The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 160

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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Thread 158

The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 159

[Pelayo]

Satan would have really balked if he had known it was a set up, and God already knew the results.

So God didn't know the results? What port of All seeing, All knowing, Ever-present don't you get?

I know that some of you like to package everyone up in your neat little acronyms because then you don't have to deal with the individual

FYI Dyophysite would be the Catholic version. but you can't put me in your cookie mold, what I believe I have learned from my private studies, and from no one else.

So... we've herd it before from other people and their "private studies", it was blasphemous then and it's blasphemous now.

[hopefulpilgrim]

Again, nobody asked me (sniff sniff), but I believe Jesus was, is, and forever shall be Lord and God. At his incarnation, he was fully God and fully man....only He could be both. He "used" His diety at certain times, doing things that no human being could do, but when He was tempted, he didn't rely on his deity for victory. I believe He relied on His Father and the Word, as an example for us when we are tested. As God, he allowed himself to be worshipped; if he were ONLY man, I don't think He would have allowed that. What do y'all think?

[hopefulpilgrim]

You wrote: One more observation. If you believe Jesus was the "Son of God," you need to ask yourself when the "son" of something assumes a different fundamental character (or essence) from that which is the father. Dogs sire more dogs. Horses sire horses. Cats sire cats. If Jesus is the "Son of God" He must be God. (Begotten, not made. Consubstantial (of the same substance) with the Father) If Jesus is the "Son of Man" He must be man. Which is it then? Is Jesus God or Man? The answer is 100 per cent both.

Yea! I agree with a catholic totally! You worded this plainly and sensibly.

[hopefulpilgrim]

You wrote: To deny the Divinity of Jesus Christ is beyond the pale of orthodoxy.

I certainly favor the term "diety" over the word "divinity" because divinity means "of or like God" whereas "deity" means the state of BEING God."...but then I am a nit-picker at times......

[Iowegian]

I am intimately familiar with all of Paul's writings. I dare say that I even understand what he is saying. Having read and understood his teachings, I reject them.

You are ticked off because of what I posted. Too bad, that's the price you pay for rejecting Christ I guess. I still think you are intelligent and an all around nice guy, but this is obviously a very big difference of opinion. Since you are so well read and you say you understand all of Paul's writings (as I already knew - that's why I asked you), please tell me what you think Paul meant by "all Israel will be saved".

[Iowegian]

Or, in other words, the incarnation was an exchange of part of the divine nature of Christ for human characteristics. His moral qualities, such as love and mercy, were maintained.

I disagree with this part, I don't see it was an exchange, but it was a personal choice, done for a reason and his moral qualities would, of course be maintained, because without them he would not be the same unique person. In other words, it was a moment by moment decision not to use his own power, but to merely rely on what we would have.

[Iowegian]

Are all paths valid? Will they all lead to Christ and salvation?

No and No.

[Pelayo]

If the Catholic Church was to be the only Church, you failed miserably, because you have never allowed for any personalities except that of followers.

Have you ever actually studied the lives of the saints? Just how many people in this world do you think can stand your ritualistic repetitive cold sterile idol filled Church?

Rephrase to "Just how many people in the world do you think can understand your solemn ritualistic, unchanging, warm and full of life, artistically filled Church.

The answer is.... lots.

[al_c]

Hear that SD, Al_c, Peg, D-fendr, Allend, etc. Thought you were off the hook did ya? Why I oughta........

Bring it! ;o)

[trad_anglican]

But, curiously, we have not one bit of the oral tradition preserved.

Bass, do you think it's possible that the Didache represents some of the "lost" oral tradition? It certainly reads as such to me.

[SoothingDave]

In the beginning was the Word and the word was wih God and the Word was God.

Well, look what I stirred up. :-) Thank you and welcome aboard. Just a few short threads ago we had a guy telling us that the implied meaning was that the Word was a god. That is, though the Holy Spirit neglected to use an indefinite article in that place, we should read it as if He had.

Curiouser and curiouser.

SD

[al_c]

Good morning, everyone!
This is a good lesson today ... everyone please take the time to read the readings and the meditation. Then ... as my priest said at Mass yesterday ... "shut up and listen to God."

Wednesday, October 10, 2001

First Reading: Responsorial Psalm: Gospel:

Jonah 4:1-11 Psalm 86:3-6, 9-10 Luke 11:1-4 If you want God to hear your prayers, hear the voice of the poor. If you wish God to anticipate your wants, provide those of the needy without waiting for them to ask you. Especially anticipate the needs of those who are ashamed to beg. To make them ask for alms is to make them buy it.   -- St. Thomas of Villanova -

----------------------

From wau.org...

Jonah fled from God's call to preach in the pagan city of Nineveh. God pursued the reluctant prophet, however, until he finally--though still somewhat reluctantly--obeyed (Jonah 1–2). Once the Ninevites heard Jonah's warning that their sins had kindled God's wrath, they immediately repented and turned to God. In response, God withheld the punishment they deserved (3:1-10). All was well that ended well ... except for Jonah.

Jonah sulked because God-- "slow to anger, and abounding in steadfast love" (Jonah 4:2)-- showed mercy to a people whom Jonah considered more sinful than faithful Jews like himself. Jonah had personally experienced God's mercy (1:17-2:10), but he wanted to withhold that mercy from others. And so, in another act of mercy, God probed Jonah's heart: "Should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand persons who do not know their right hand from their left?" (4:11).

Like the symbolic actions of the prophets and the parables of Jesus, the story of Jonah illustrates an important spiritual truth. Full of humor and irony, this fable--perhaps woven around a historical figure--teaches us that God's mercy knows no bounds. His love is so wide that he can forgive the pagan Ninevites and at the same time forgive their accuser, Jonah, and offer to free him from his petty anger!

God's mercy and compassion extend to everyone: righteous or sinful, Jew or Gentile, believer or unbeliever. Instead of judging us with strict justice and giving us the punishment we all deserve, our Father judges us with mercy and removes our punishment. So great is his love that "while we were yet sinners Christ died for us" (Romans 5:8).

May we never place ourselves above God and presume, as Jonah did, to tell him how he should act. If he chooses to bless people who don't believe in him, or people of a different denomination than ours, may we be just as open-hearted as he is and praise him for his mercy. God loves everyone, and he wants to bring everyone closer to Jesus.

"Holy Spirit, fill my heart with the same compassion and mercy my Father has for me. No one is excluded from his love, so teach me to love everyone and to want nothing but the best for them: your presence.

------------------

Have a great day, everyone!

[SoothingDave]

Dave you have the makings of a good FUNDAMENTALIST, now if you could just get the rest of it. :)

Big Mack, praise the Lord that He led you, through your study, to the orthodox understanding. :-)

SD

[SoothingDave]

If the question is: Is Jesus God? I would answer unequivocally YES. He is and always has been. But the question you ignore (that others here are hinting at) is: Did Jesus use his own divinity (power) while here on earth or did he rely only on his humanity plus the same power of God through the Holy Spirit as he would give us? Philippians chapter 2 seems indicate that he "emptied himself" (didn't use) his own divine nature while here on earth on his most holy mission for us. Perhaps this was done to serve as an example for us?

Thank you for your answer. And especially for stating well the follow-on issue of how Jesus used his Divinity on earth. If your question is really the point that Havoc and JHavard were hinting at, then I wish they could have hinted more strongly. And not hesitated to answer my question unequivocally.

SD

[SoothingDave]

I know that some of you like to package everyone up in your neat little acronyms because then you don't have to deal with the individual, just the name in your encyclopedia that you can copy and paste arguments to, but you can't put me in your cookie mold, what I believe I have learned from my private studies, and from no one else.

The names used to refer to the heresies are for cataloging purposes. I realize that no one taught you what you believe, that it came to you through your own studies. That doesn't mean that your ideas are original. When you "discover" theories that are identical to ancient heresies, they will be identified as such.

SD

[SoothingDave]

More name calling and faulty packaging. Where did you get the idea that I didn't believe in the Divinity of Christ?

Probably from when I asked you if Jesus was God and you said (post 5, this thread):

I have no firm conviction on this subject other then it seems that Christ had to be completely human, and have the same trials and temptations as we do, and if he had some advantage that we don't have, Satan could throw that up as an unfair advantage.

SD

[SoothingDave]

SD is just attempting the ancient tactic of labeling his opponents as a heretic from amont their long list of church endorsed "heresies", so as to discredit whatever points they try to make about the RC church. If they can't fit you into one of these, they'll just invent some new "heresies". It a wicked game that has been practiced for centuries against good, true God-fearing Christians, who believe in what the Scriptures say above what others tell them it says.

SD is asking people whether they believe in the Divinity of Jesus, whether Jesus is God. That the answers of some echo heresies of old is not part of a plot. It simply is. I leave it up to others to deduce what it all means, what the ramifications to a "me and the Holy Spirit" method of theology development are when the very basics of orthodox Christianity are contradicted.

SD

[SoothingDave]

Yep, he is;

Something to agree upon. Let us pause.

OK

but, to make a point that I made before or was trying to make. Jesus came to be a man and to excercise his authority only as it aligned with the Father's Will. If he had acted fully in divinity, he could have come down off the cross and called upon legions of Angels to his aid.

How would that have been acting "fully in divinity"? It would have been exercising the powers of the Divine, but would have totally blew the one chance for repairing the infinite rift.

He stayed to fulfill his role in obedience to the Father's will. He came as 'God with us' but was a man in every respect. He lived as a man, suffered temptation as a man and overcame as a man - all through the will and authority of the Father which every Christian has. After learning all he needed know, he stood on his own and answered to God on matters of his faith and belief. But, he congregated with others - teaching them. Wow, how anti-Catholic that is. No Magesterium to direct him and make sure he was teaching the right things.

You mean Jesus taught them? He didn't just give them a book and say "maketh of this what ye will"? Maybe someday you will understand "vicarhood" and how the Magisterium does the same teaching function of Jesus. Maybe.

(Or, did it ever occur to you that Jesus created the Magisterium, and not the other way around? He didn't need them, they need Him.)

SD