Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law (Pledge Banned in Madison, WI Schools)

Wisconsin State Journal ^ | 10/8/01 | Doug Erickson Education reporter

[Jean S]

Can't use Pledge of Allegiance to comply with law, schools told

The Madison School Board barred schools on Monday from using the Pledge of Allegiance as a way to comply with a new state law that requires a daily patriotism dose.

Instead, schools can use only the national anthem - and then only instrumental versions of it. No words.

The 3-2 board vote came after several parents and teachers complained that the pledge, which contains the line "one nation, under God," is a religious oath that doesn't belong in public schools. Others criticized the pledge for promoting nationalism and militarism.

Board President Calvin Williams, who voted with the majority, said the board's action is the "least intrusive and least offensive" way to comply with the law.

"We've chosen a reasonable compromise that preserves freedom of expression on both ends of the spectrum and doesn't trample on anyone's rights," he said.

The law, which took effect Sept. 1, requires schools to offer the pledge or anthem daily in grades 1 to 12. Madison implemented the law last week, with Superintendent Art Rainwater leaving it up to each school to decide whether the pledge or anthem would be offered and in what format.

The heaviest criticism has been aimed at those elementary schools where the pledge is being read over the public address system. Although the law says students cannot be forced to participate, critics said children have little choice but to listen to it when it's broadcast throughout the school.

"What we're doing here is opening up a very slippery slope," said Sally Franz, an educational assistant at Cherokee Middle School and one of six people who criticized the law Monday. "Indoctrination leads to totalitarianism, and we're approaching that moment."

Board member Bill Keys' motion instructs schools to broadcast an instrumental version of the anthem at a time deemed appropriate by administrators. This option will allow dissenting students to opt out less conspicuously, reducing the chances for harassment, he said.

Williams and Carol Carstensen agreed with Keys. Carstensen said the motion in no way prohibits the teaching of the pledge for educational reasons or the singing of the anthem in music class. And students can say the pledge on their own during the school day, she said.

Ruth Robarts and Shwaw Vang opposed the motion, with both saying it doesn't go far enough to protect the rights of dissenters. "It's a step in the right direction, but it doesn't remove the coerciveness of the classroom situation," Robarts said. She wanted the anthem to be offered before or after classes.

Ray Allen and Juan Jose Lopez were absent. Reached later, Lopez said he opposes the motion.

"I would not have voted to ban the Pledge of Allegiance," he said. "We live in the United States of America, and people should be given the choice."

[From The Deer Stand]

Madison -- should that surprise anyone? As Nikita Khruschchev once said after visiting Madison, "Get me the #@%$ out of here, there are too many Commies!"

[Constitutional Patriot]

WI is a hotbed of communist activists and has been so for decades.

[MattGarrett]

Good Lord, will this crap EVER end? I hope the kids dissent and say it anyway!

[Patriotic Rich]

Thanks for the post JeanS. Bump!

[Eva]

Maybe the public schools in Madison would like to forego the acceptance of federal money, if they don't care to pledge allegiance to the United States. Maybe they would like to secede, as well.

It looks as though the inmates are now in charge of the assylum in Madison. Isn't that the place where the armory building was blown up, killing someone who was working inside, during the Viet Nam war? One of the guys who did it was still on the FBI's most wanted list until Clinton had him removed. I can't think of his name, but he was suspected of being the UNABomber.

[Dick Vomer]

copy of my e-mail to Madison school board.

Dear Madison School Board,

I think the pledge of allegiance is overated just like you and promotes nationalism and a belief in a God. What a bunch of dung.... we hate the USA right?

All the prejudice and race hatred... It's not like you will ever have a black guy as president of a school board or a Hispanic on the board...or some person named Vang..or even a woman....or some retarded looking old guy.... I mean only white upper class rich men need apply. There is no God...right? In fact anything with God on it is bad, bad, bad....so will you give all that bad money back to the treasurer that has In God We Trust on it.

I want people like you running all the public schools...I really do. When my 4 kids are older they are going to need some mimumum wage employees that can't read or write to empty the trash bins. I figure your students will be dumbed down enough to do anything.

[Sweet Hour of Prayer]

Psuedo intellectual snobbery has NO place in our public schools. Your visions and theories are more appropriate for colleges and universities where the students pay to hear such rhetoric.

[sheik yerbouty]

It's time to take America back from the PC mullahs who left America vulnerable!

[philman_36]

The socialists have taken over Wisconsin? When did this happen?

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away...
No, wait a second...

Once upon a time...
No, that ain't it...
Ahhh... Wisconsin Stories: Laboratory of Democracy...here ya go.

[jgrubbs]

Rush is talking about this subject right now!!!!

I, and I'm sure many of you have emailed him about this, lets keep this Freep going!!!

[ppaul]

Here's the link to article in the local newspaper, The Capitol Times, of Madison, Wisconsin.

[jgrubbs]

Pledge banned in city schools
School Board also nixes anthems words

By Lee Sensenbrenner and Kathryn Kingsbury
October 9, 2001


The Capital TimesClass recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is no longer allowed in the Madison Metropolitan School District.

The School Board voted 3 to 2 Monday to ban the pledge, which had been used in some schools to comply with a recent state law.

The law, which went into effect Sept. 1, requires schools to offer a moment of patriotism sometime during the day - leading students who don't object through either the national anthem or the Pledge of Allegiance.

In Madison schools, though, the pledge is out. And so, too, are the words of the national anthem.

The action the board took requires Madison schools to use a wordless version of the national anthem to comply with the law, and it forbids anyone from leading a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance.

Taking out the words of the "Star-Spangled Banner" was an attempt to address the same concerns some had with the pledge.

School Board member Bill Keys said parents had flooded officials with calls and e-mails saying they were upset with the phrases in the pledge such as "one nation under God" and militaristic themes in the national anthem. And both, parents said, imposed a mass mentality on students.

Superintendent Art Rainwater said the solution would not please everybody.

"We do have staff members that are as adamantly opposed to the national anthem as they are to the pledge," he said.

Of the five board members present, Calvin Williams, Carol Carstensen, and Keys voted in favor of the measure. Shwaw Vang and Ruth Robarts voted against it.

"I'm just very uncomfortable with anything that does not remove the coerciveness of the classroom," said Robarts, who had proposed offering the Pledge of Allegiance in gymnasiums or auditoriums so that no student felt compelled to participate. Students who wanted to could leave class at a specified time during the day to recite it, she said.

But Carstensen said such an arrangement would be a logistical nightmare. And she said that children who stayed behind in classrooms might feel excluded, anyway.

Each of the half-dozen citizens who addressed the board either spoke against the new state law or expressed concern about the way it was implemented last week in the Madison schools.

Until now, it was up to each school to choose whether to recite the pledge or sing the anthem. How the students and staff have reacted to the law has varied.

DuWayne Hoffman, a teacher at Randall Elementary, said he had already been approached by children who were worried because their parents asked them not to recite the pledge.

"I am just concerned about kids who are pulled in opposite directions because their beliefs are different," he said.

At Madison West High School, a tinny rendition of the "Star-Spangled Banner" has been piped through the loudspeakers each morning.

As it played Monday morning, students at the school's computer lab typed steadily through it.

In an English as a second language class down the hall, a teacher urged her students to stand up. All of them did, a few with their hands folded and heads bowed. Most classrooms fell somewhere in between the two extremes of observance. Some students stood, fewer sang, and many remained seated quietly. Several doodled or leaned over to a seated neighbor and whispered.

Now, no class will be led to sing the anthem.

Freshman Laura Shank said she was surprised when West High began a new tradition of playing the national anthem during its morning announcements last week, but said, "it's not really that big of an issue."

She added that she was glad her school's principal, Loren Rathert, had opted for the "Star-Spangled Banner" over the pledge, which she said she wouldn't feel comfortable reciting.

"I wouldn't want to agree totally with everything our country does," she said.

Rathert said the new law, which has drawn fire in Madison for mingling church and state and alienating international students, has turned into a valuable civics lesson for his students.

"They're learning that these issues can be messy," he said.


Published: 10:12 AM 10/09/01

[jgrubbs]

Pledge banned in city schools
School Board also nixes anthems words

By Lee Sensenbrenner and Kathryn Kingsbury
October 9, 2001


The Capital TimesClass recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance is no longer allowed in the Madison Metropolitan School District.

The School Board voted 3 to 2 Monday to ban the pledge, which had been used in some schools to comply with a recent state law.

The law, which went into effect Sept. 1, requires schools to offer a moment of patriotism sometime during the day - leading students who don't object through either the national anthem or the Pledge of Allegiance.

In Madison schools, though, the pledge is out. And so, too, are the words of the national anthem.

The action the board took requires Madison schools to use a wordless version of the national anthem to comply with the law, and it forbids anyone from leading a recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance.

Taking out the words of the "Star-Spangled Banner" was an attempt to address the same concerns some had with the pledge.

School Board member Bill Keys said parents had flooded officials with calls and e-mails saying they were upset with the phrases in the pledge such as "one nation under God" and militaristic themes in the national anthem. And both, parents said, imposed a mass mentality on students.

Superintendent Art Rainwater said the solution would not please everybody.

"We do have staff members that are as adamantly opposed to the national anthem as they are to the pledge," he said.

Of the five board members present, Calvin Williams, Carol Carstensen, and Keys voted in favor of the measure. Shwaw Vang and Ruth Robarts voted against it.

"I'm just very uncomfortable with anything that does not remove the coerciveness of the classroom," said Robarts, who had proposed offering the Pledge of Allegiance in gymnasiums or auditoriums so that no student felt compelled to participate. Students who wanted to could leave class at a specified time during the day to recite it, she said.

But Carstensen said such an arrangement would be a logistical nightmare. And she said that children who stayed behind in classrooms might feel excluded, anyway.

Each of the half-dozen citizens who addressed the board either spoke against the new state law or expressed concern about the way it was implemented last week in the Madison schools.

Until now, it was up to each school to choose whether to recite the pledge or sing the anthem. How the students and staff have reacted to the law has varied.

DuWayne Hoffman, a teacher at Randall Elementary, said he had already been approached by children who were worried because their parents asked them not to recite the pledge.

"I am just concerned about kids who are pulled in opposite directions because their beliefs are different," he said.

At Madison West High School, a tinny rendition of the "Star-Spangled Banner" has been piped through the loudspeakers each morning.

As it played Monday morning, students at the school's computer lab typed steadily through it.

In an English as a second language class down the hall, a teacher urged her students to stand up. All of them did, a few with their hands folded and heads bowed. Most classrooms fell somewhere in between the two extremes of observance. Some students stood, fewer sang, and many remained seated quietly. Several doodled or leaned over to a seated neighbor and whispered.

Now, no class will be led to sing the anthem.

Freshman Laura Shank said she was surprised when West High began a new tradition of playing the national anthem during its morning announcements last week, but said, "it's not really that big of an issue."

She added that she was glad her school's principal, Loren Rathert, had opted for the "Star-Spangled Banner" over the pledge, which she said she wouldn't feel comfortable reciting.

"I wouldn't want to agree totally with everything our country does," she said.

Rathert said the new law, which has drawn fire in Madison for mingling church and state and alienating international students, has turned into a valuable civics lesson for his students.

"They're learning that these issues can be messy," he said.


Published: 10:12 AM 10/09/01

[jgrubbs]

Sorry for the double post, could a moderator delete the second one??

Of the five board members present, Calvin Williams, Carol Carstensen, and Keys voted in favor of the measure. Shwaw Vang and Ruth Robarts voted against it.

I will see if I can find their individual email addresses, so that we can thank the two that voted against it, and FREEP the three commies!

[homeschool mama]

I seem to recall on an earlier thread that you don't agree with enforced recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance. Perhaps this article would be more in line with your thinking?

[afraidfortherepublic]

BTTT for later Freep.

[Askel5]

It isn't the kind of thing you can create in a Pavlovian dog training program.

Funny you bring that up. I was scanning through this yellowed book on Russia last night wherein he spoke of Pavlov's getting away with using the debilitating effects of the communist system as a metaphor to illustrate some neurological deficit he was discussing. I think it ended his official public appearances but did not get him imprisoned or killed as happened to other colleagues without his international reputation and European contacts.

I'm with you on the Pledge of Allegiance. What's the point? Didn't all these boomers grow up saying it? Look how they turned out.

I used to wonder how long until they removed "In God We Trust" from the money but -- particularly given the resurgence of Religion among the "former militant atheists" and our own Faith-Based Funny Money -- I don't see it happening.

Plus, it's nice "cover". Sorta like "informing consciences" and "quoting Scripture" like a spoonful of sugar to help the ESCR go down.

Perhaps a little more time spent on the meaning of "IS" ... as in all men ARE created equal.

Declaration Foundation

[Redbob]

There are some real sick puppies loose in this country; what is it that attracts them all to Madison?

[TheRealLobo]

The pledge isn't to the piece of cloth, the pledge is to what it represents.

[Jay W]

Not so fast, Kryptonite - Marquette banned a flag ceremony a couple of weeks ago because it might be offensive to foreign students.

This has reached the point now that I WANT to offend foreign students! The more offended they are, maybe the more likely they'll pack up and leave and go back to whatever hellhole they came from in the first place. With any luck, they'll take the commie bastard educators with them.