BREAKING: Anthrax case possible in VIRGINIA

AP Breaking ^ | 10/09/01

[NotJustAnotherPrettyFace]

Great advice, Doc (love your screen name!).

Here's what I said on another thread to FReeper Lorraine who had received an unmarked envelope postmarked "Kissimmee, FLA".

URGENT - pick them up out of the trash (cover your hands with a papertowel or a plastic garbage liner bag) and set them aside in a safe place and contact the FBI IMMEDIATELY!

Treat these envelopes like what they are - potential evidence in the war on terrorism.

NATIONWIDE LIST OF FBI FIELD OFFICES WITH CONTACT PHONE NUMBERS

If the FBI field office personnel thinks it's irrelevant, no doubt they'll tell you that upfront when receiving a call of this nature.

[Iwo Jima]

I see from your bio that you are a veterinarian. The level of ignorance in medical people is most distressing. Especially in times like these, you have a duty to yourself, your profession, the general public, and your country to improve your level of knowledge. Until you do so, you should not spread false notions.

The anthax outbreak you mentioned could NOT have been inhalation anthrax. It must have been caused by contact with the skin. How do I know? Because you said that the people recovered. No one recovers from inhaled anthrax once symptoms appear.

Cipro is known to be effective against inhaled anthrax, but ONLY if given before symptoms appear. That is to say, before the bacteria cause the deadly toxins to form. In other words, you have to start treatment based on known or even suspected exposure, not based on the development of symptoms.

It is the toxins produced by the anthrax, and not the anthrax illness itself, which is fatal and untreatable. Yes, you can give antibiotics after symptoms occur and kill the bacteria, but you won't lay a glove on the toxins, and the patient will die.

As to why Cipro is better than penicillin for inhalation anthrax, I cannot say exactly other than that Cipro is more potent, provides more coverage for more germs, and in this case you don't have time to try out the more garden variety antibiotics and "move up" to more powerful ones as indicated, which you might do with a less deadly and slower moving disease.
.
Again, please study more on this subject. Do not rely on what you were taught in med/vet school or CME, your personal experience, or what the government including CDC is putting out. All three are unreliable sources upon which to draw in these unprecedented times.

[justa-hairyape]

The terrorist dont fear death because they believe in that adolescent muslim extremist version of heaven or paradise. 70 some virgins for every male. Thats ludicrous. Women would never be given a servants role in any heaven. The womens role in this muslim extremist adolescent version of heaven is to continually become virgins and continually please the males. These muslim extremist obviously worship a false sense of heaven or paradise. Once that is broken, IE - our god or government or whatever, is going to deal you a horrific death, will cause the other adolescent muslim extremist to start questioning their beliefs. They have been programmed much like cult members have been programmed. We need to break the programming. A tactical nuclear attack on terrorist camps deep in the mountains would do that. Some of these deep mountain camps are up above 10,000 feet. There is no other way to deal with them. Our special ops helicopters cannot fly that high.

[cgk]

I'm with you.

Case in point:

Cipro's effectiveness

Keep on freepin' on..

Mrs Kus

[Recovering_Democrat]

If we're going to be accurate, then let's be accurate, shall we?

The second person had a pre-symptomatic case. They got a culture out of him, which means he was carrying the disease. If they caught it in time, they can treat him.

Yes, he didn't have Anthrax...your expounding upon my original point is correct, though I might not say "had a pre-symptomatic case", since the word "case" implies infliction with the actual disease and not the molecular carriers. Similarly, millions of people carry "cancer cells" in their bodies without suffering from cancer; they don't have a "pre-symptomatic case" of cancer. Carrying a spore isn't the same as having the disease.

Nevertheless, thanks for reinforcing my point.

[vetvetdoug]

I reject your post #183 along with your snide personal attack. Unless you are familiar with USAMRIID, Peters, Tigrett, and Patrick, you haven't a clue with what you are talking about. My post had to do with cows in case you cannot read. The Factor I, II, and III componets of anthrax are well known by those of us who study the disease. Your statements of why Cipro was chosen exposes your ignorance of why Cipro was chosen as the antibiotic of choice for anthrax and basic medicine, basic pharmacology, and microbiology. Your last statement is ludicrous and sums up the total of your breadth and experience.

I spread no false notions and my statement to anyone of minimal knowledge of the disease is correct. I also noticed that your bio is nonexistant which correlates well with your knowledge of the disease.

[vetvetdoug]

BUMP

[FR_addict]

It's my thought that the terrorists did not prepare this in a way that left spore particles fine enough to really penetrate the lungs. Thus they managed to sicken very few people.

That's what I was thinking. They could try again. We need to consider this a real threat, as it may be a really big problem in the future.

[A CA Guy]

Hope this is not happening the Rock Group Anthrax was bad enough.

[Iwo Jima]

Cows? COWS???

Dr. Doug, in case you haven't noticed, this is a thread about the threat of anthrax to humans. We are not concerned about cows. I know that you are, and I do not fault you for that. I do not make snide remarks about your being a "cow doctor," because that is an honorable and necessary profession. But if you would take the time to just read the anthrax threads on FreeRepublic as it relates to humans, you would increase your knowledge on the subject tenfold.

There is just no excuse for advising patients, the public, or the medical profession to wait until symptoms appear and then to prescribe penicillin as opposed to Cipro.

Why don't you tell us why ALL of the experts who are saying that Cipro (or perhaps some other antibiotics, not penicillin) before the onset of symptoms is the only possible cure for inhalation anthrax IN HUMANS are wrong, and you, Dr. Doug the veterinarian, are correct in saying wait till you get symptoms and then take penicillin. Is your position based on saving money or what?

The cows need you, I am sure. Humans and informed people on this website do not. The truly sad thing is that, in times like these, we may very well need the expertise of our veterinarians to assist humans in dire straits. I had hoped that vets would rise to the occasion and increase their fund of knowledge about anthrax AS IT RELATES TO HUMANS so that this could be done, but it looks likes in your case at least, we cannot count on that.

[vetvetdoug]

Your misinformation about BW is astounding. The former attorney general of Tennessee once told me that "one wastes his time arguing with a fool". If you don't know the linkage between anthrax and veterinary medicine or how the LD50 for the disease in humans was researched, or how Cipro was selected as the antibiotic of choice for BW anthrax ten years ago, then we are discussing the item on separate levels.

If there is a bioengineered anthrax outbreak you go right ahead and take all the Cipro you wish. It is an antibiotic that was new ten years ago and came out right before the Gulf War. You wish to attack me on philosophical levels, I wish work with medicine. You are the one that needs to be educated about the work microbiologists, veterinarians, and infectious disease specialists do. Building 540 forever for those that know what the hell I am talking about.

This is a personal attack, Jim, this guy is a mouthy coward.

[vetvetdoug]

Your misinformation about BW is astounding. The former attorney general of Tennessee once told me that "one wastes his time arguing with a fool". If you don't know the linkage between anthrax and veterinary medicine or how the LD50 for the disease in humans was researched, or how Cipro was selected as the antibiotic of choice for BW anthrax ten years ago, then we are discussing the item on separate levels.

If there is a bioengineered anthrax outbreak you go right ahead and take all the Cipro you wish. It is an antibiotic that was new ten years ago and came out right before the Gulf War. You wish to attack me on philosophical levels, I wish work with medicine. You are the one that needs to be educated about the work microbiologists, veterinarians, and infectious disease specialists do. Building 540 forever for those that know what the hell I am talking about.

This is a personal attack, Jim, this guy is a mouthy coward.

[Iwo Jima]

You remarks are not worthy of a reply. I thought that mad cow disease was not transmittable to humans.

[vetvetdoug]

Even your reply is contradicting, incorrect and irrational. You replied and Mad cow disease is contagious to humans.

[Don Joe]

He's not panicked. He's simply calling you on the literally deadly advice that you gave earlier in this thread. You said

"Just see your doctor if you get sick. No different than at any other time"

That is total bs. The fact of the matter is, once the symptoms appear (ie you "get sick"), it's too late--the toxin is already killing you, and taking antibiotics at that point isn't going to save you.

Bingo.

From http://www.anthrax.osd.mil/Flash_interface/default.html:

Treatment:

---

• Treatment is usually not effective after symptoms are present.
• High dose antibiotic treatment after symptoms appear can lower the death rate from 99% to about 80%.

[Don Joe]

"Keep on freepin' on..

Thanks, and likewise.

I see "Doctor" bonesmccoy has finally quit spouting his nonsense here. Whew!