Sorry for the long Thread 157. I was off of work today, and took my wife and kids to the Milwaukee Zoo. Just got back and checked in--I figured we'd need a new thread, but didn't think you'd have it up to reply #230! I won't have time to read through Thread 157 before sunset, so I will check in tomorrow night to catch up on reading and reply to anyone who posted to me.
Shabbat Shalom!
Our side believes it has won the Peter debate with strong undeniable facts and your side believes it has won (I'm not sure why) :) so here is a subject that is dying to be talked about because it is what is going on on these threads and I don't think it has been talked about in detail yet so I'll go first.
This statement is the heart and soul of ECUMENISM.
Though the ecumenical movement is very broad, there are certain unscriptural traits which are present throughout. The ecumenical movement downplays doctrinal purity and refuses to practice biblical separation.
We cannot put aside doctrin for the sake of peace, there is a Devil out there and he is setting up the false church and this is the vehicle he is using to bring it about.
BigMack
Could it be you guys are just a little jealous?! ;^D
Re: 1 Tim. 3:15 "But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth."
Well, no one asked me 8^( but I would argue that the "truth" which Paul is referring to here is the Word of God (Jesus' words to the Father: "THY WORD IS TRUTH."), or the Gospel ( Paul's words: " ...the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation..." Eph 1:13 and Col. 1:5). The church is the "pillar and foundation of truth" because it has been entrusted with the Word of God and exists to uphold it and hold it up!
So, the scriptures are not the pillar and foundation of truth; they represent Truth itself. The Church is the pillar and foundation which uphold the scriptures. WHAT AN AWESOME RESPONSIBILITY AND PRIVILEGE WE HAVE !
SD, I can't find that verse about Mary being full of grace. I've heard it, though. (Or I could be confusing it with the Hail Mary recitation.) I did a word search and did find where JESUS is said to be "full of grace" and Stephen (the deacon) to be "full of grace" (as well as other virtues).
Hi, David. Yes, Jesus is the divine Logos--- "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God....and the Word became flesh [my heart sings!] and dwelt among us..." And I know that He will one day sit in judgment... But what was in my mind when I posted were the words of Christ in John 12, where He said: "Whoever rejects Me and does not accept my words has something to judge him: the WORD that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day."
However, you raise an interesting point about "the Word of God" (Christ's title) being equated with the collection of holy scripture. What follows are the verses which contain that phrase:
1 Kings 12:22 But this word of God came to Shemaiah the man of God:
1 Chronicles 17:3 That night the word of God came to Nathan, saying:
Proverbs 30:5 Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him.
Matthew 15:6 he is not to `honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
Luke 3:2 during the high priesthood of Annas and Caiaphas, the word of God came to John son of Zechariah in the desert.
Luke 5:1 One day as Jesus was standing by the Lake of Gennesaret, with the people crowding around him and listening to the word of God,
Luke 8:11 This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God.
Luke 11:28 He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it."
John 10:35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken--
Acts 4:31 After they prayed, the place where they were meeting was shaken. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and spoke the word of God boldly.
Acts 6:2 So the Twelve gathered all the disciples together and said, "It would not be right for us to neglect the ministry of the word of God in order to wait on tables.
Acts 6:7 So the word of God spread. The number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly, and a large number of priests became obedient to the faith.
Acts 8:14 When the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them.
Acts 11:1 The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God.
Acts 12:24 But the word of God continued to increase and spread.
Acts 13:5 When they arrived at Salamis, they proclaimed the word of God in the Jewish synagogues. John was with them as their helper.
Acts 13:7 who was an attendant of the proconsul, Sergius Paulus. The proconsul, an intelligent man, sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the word of God.
Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: "We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.
Acts 17:13 When the Jews in Thessalonica learned that Paul was preaching the word of God at Berea, they went there too, agitating the crowds and stirring them up.
Acts 18:11 So Paul stayed for a year and a half, teaching them the word of God.
1 Corinthians 14:36 Did the word of God originate with you? Or are you the only people it has reached?
2 Corinthians 2:17 Unlike so many, we do not peddle the word of God for profit. On the contrary, in Christ we speak before God with sincerity, like men sent from God.
2 Corinthians 4:2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
Ephesians 6:17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God.
Philippians 1:14 Because of my chains, most of the brothers in the Lord have been encouraged to speak the word of God more courageously and fearlessly.
Colossians 1:25 I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness--
Thessalonians 2:12-14 And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.
1 Timothy 4:5 because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.
Titus 2:5 to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Hebrews 6:5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,
Hebrews 13:7 Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith.
1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
1 John 2:14 I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.
Revelation 1:2 who testifies to everything he saw--that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Revelation 1:9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.
Revelation 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained.
Revelation 19:13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.
Revelation 20:4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Do any of these phrases refer to the collection of writings that make up Scripture? Interesting. Yours truly, Hopefulpilgrim
There are millions around the world who agree with me and disagree with you. This argument against sola Scriptura is not persuasive either.
But when there are millions more who use the same methodology and who disagree with you about foundational teachings, the argument against "Scripture alone" becomes that much more apparent and persuasive.
Pray for John Paul II
9 Posted on 10/03/2001 23:20:07 PDT by angelo
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"......This from a church which contains such opposites as Richard McBrien and Cardinal Ratzinger, Ted Kennedy and Mother Angelica. You should be a little more forthright in acknowledging doctrinal dissent within your own church."
26 Posted on 10/04/2001 06:39:25 PDT by angelo
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"...MY POINT WAS, THERE ARE GREATER DIFFERENCES BETWEEN "ORTHODOX" AND "DISSENTING" CATHOLICS THAN THERE ARE BETWEEN SOME PROTESTANT DENOMINATIONS. I'd go further and say that Cardinal Ratzinger has more in common theologically with Billy Graham than he does with Richard McBrien."
Angelo,
What I don't understand about any of the above is why you mention it all. You are knowledgeable enough about Catholicism to know that "theology" thrown around by any good or bad Catholic does not a teaching, dogma or doctrine of the Church make. When you speak of "dissenting" Catholics I think you are referring to "differing theology" thrown out there and bandied about by whoever. Theology is nothing more than words unless and until approved by the Holy Father and the Magesterium. These things don't have to be of any concern to Catholics until then. I mean we can go about our business carefree, knowing that no false teaching will be approved; no new teaching that contradicts what we already know will be plucked out of thin air and added to or subtracted from the deposit of faith.
It also surprises me that you speak of anyone who is baptized Catholic as Catholic when you must know about defacto excommunication. Some things make you automatically excommunicated otherwise you'd still be a Catholic in good standing because you were baptized Catholic. It isn't required that a public edict from on high take place to say someone is excommunicated. This is between you and God though admittedly I would be happy to hear of a public excommunication or two for some. The remedy for excommunication is repentance and sacramental confession.
You say that Kennedy and McBrien attend Mass and receive the sacraments. Well I don't know that for sure or if or where their priests are remiss but I do know that the priests, Kennedy and McBrien will answer to God for their sins of omission/commission and the scandal they cause if they are indeed culpable. That is between God and the people involved. We can only say for sure that their behaviors/ actions are not Catholic.
Angelo, you are very knowledgeable about the finer points of Catholicism but there are a few holes in basic catechesis evidenced above. I cannot hold a candle to the folks on these threads when it comes to scholarship but the basic simple stuff of the Catholic faith is my strong suit and I 'm pretty sure I am correct about the above unless I misunderstand your misunderstanding.
From Thread 157:
This horse is going to help me to the Kingdom. He's going to launch me there:). No he's not sick, he's a stubborn 3 yr. old and I am just not a firm enough rider to control it. You know anyone who needs a beautiful overo paint? He is for sale.:) I've seen him work good for some one more aggressive then I.
This should be easy, Becky. Just pretend he's BigMack.