The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 158

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Statesmen may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. - John Adams

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 157

[Rauch byeth]

So is, what you are saying? is that Jesus blood on the cross is enough to get me saved but not enough to keep me saved and my works or lack of works will cause me to lose it?

Again I ask which work or lack of works will cause me to lose it and how do I get it back?

If salvation can be lost by something we do or don`t do, I think it is not like God to leave us in the dark about how to lose it since it is so clear and easy to get.

I see that when Jesus states no one can pluck them out of my hands, that means what it says and includes myself in the "no one". Of course that includes excommunication also. I have joy in this freedom. Love God so much for it that I have no intentions to go out to hurt others in this freedom. But if I do hurt another person neither do I belive that would prove I don`t have it or tht I will lose it.

Does a person lose it who is saved by the blood of the lamb and lives a perfect life[ which no one but Jesus has done] get to his 90th birthday and commits a sin and then lose it, i do not believe that. His whole life is now wasted. If so lets pray we die all immediately upon conversion lest we risk losing what is so cherished at that moment where God set us free untill man loads us up with a bunch of new and even bigger man made burdens.

in 1 John 5:11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. --------------------------------------------------------- Excerpted from Compton's Interactive Bible NIV Copyright (c) 1994, 1995, 1996 SoftKey Multimedia Inc. All Rights Reserved

I guess that depends on what the meaning of eternal is:]

May I recommend here a most powerful book if you have not read it already." GRACE WALKwritten by a preacher.

Big Mack how is that for formatting:]

[Rauch byeth]

to your post 27

Here's Greek expert Kenneth Wuest's amplified translation of John 3:36 The one who places his trust in the Son has eternal life. But he who refuses to place his trust in the Son, being of such a nature that he refuses to be persuaded, shall not see life, but the wrath of God is abiding on him. This is consistent with all other non-Catholic translations. I don't know what any RC translations say. It's faith plus nothing (as Paul made clear).

Amen, this cannot be said enough.

[Rauch byeth]

#114

Where I was headed with it Is simple. The Catholic Church says that Paul is referring to 1st century nuns here.. Pretty sad isn't it.

Well if they are widows then it is referring to them and they should be taken care of by the church. And if they chose to throw in any other women that chose to give there whole lives to Gods service then are they not doing even better?

I think what is sad is that I have not heard of one protestant church that takes care of its widows, I have heard of some widows that have had all their money extracted from them by greedy preachers that don`t qualify the responsibility of our finances and guilttrip them into giving there small, not enough to pay the bills pensions to them so that they can add another wing onto an already huge ministry. Does your church have a plan for caring for its widows?

Is there a mote in anyones eye?

[Rauch byeth]

# 109

Hi angelo I guess from reading peoples words I will get to know them. I work at a lot of odd jobs so there will be times I am not posting but will check in every now and then.

Thank you for the welcome.

[Rauch byeth]

No. We must each stand in our separate corners and wonder why we aren't impacting the world

Alas we are all setting in front of our computors and arguing over what unprovable doctrines are right or wrong. If it is for the sake of argument it is a waste. If it is in the hopes of drawing each other into a closer relationship to God, through knowledge and encouragement then we can go forth and walk the walk and talk the talk.

Maybe it is not fair that I rose up early before my family and prepared a breakfast for you while no one is here to respond, but I do hope you enjoy your breakfast! I must sign off for a short time as my grandaughter just called and said she wants me to take her to Sunday School. I am putty in her hands.

[D-fendr]

If "your Father knows what you need before you ask Him," why ask?

[dignan3]

Would a catholic agree that a demon posing as an angel of light, in order to deflect attention from Jesus Christ, could even be a remote possibility?

Absolutely. The Church knows this and is very careful and extremely conservative when it comes to visions or any other supposed supernatural occurances. And even if the Church approves a vision, She only says that it is worthy of belief, not required.

What is interesting about authentic visions of Mary is that she basically has the same message, repent and pray.

Do you think that there is even a remote possibility that any of the visions of Mary or one of the Saints could be authentic?

Hope that helps

Pray for John Paul II

[D-fendr]

Thanks for your reply.

I dunno if there is any sure-fire way of getting yard-work out of a man, particularly after the excuse of football season comes around. I think your best hope there is for cheap, bribe-able grandkids…

[RobbyS]

No need for recitations; just talk to the Father; this is the kind of prayer that pleases Him, according to this passage. And no need for extempore sermons, which is what Protestant public prayers often prove to be. One stands there with heads bowed, at first joing in the prayer, then waiting and finally hoping for the end.

[OLD REGGIE]

The unfortunate part of that(wording changes in bibles) is that so much of our culture is loaded with scriptural prayers and quotations based on older translations . For example, how is the "Lord's Prayer" rendered (Matt 6:9-13, Luke 11:2-4) Also, lots of common sayings .

I fail to see the distinction you make. Protestant and Catholic scholars agree the words "...and thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory..." were added verbiage in the KJV and Douay-Rheims bibles. They have been corrected in all current approved versions.

Interestingly, the Protestant Church has always used the added ending, while the Catholic Church used the "correct" version until recent history. Now all Christian Churches use the added ending. Do you suppose it is just because it sounds better, especially in song? It certainly doesn't add any emphasis to the Glory of God.

Certainly these corrections have not been used to "prove" any extra "veneration" of the Lord while the words "blessed art thou among women" have been used to "prove" extra Biblical emphasis on the glory of Mary.

[RobbyS]

Absolutely. The Church knows this and is very careful and extremely conservative when it comes to visions or any other supposed supernatural occurances. And even if the Church approves a vision, She only says that it is worthy of belief, not required.

A case in point is Lourdes. A number of visionaries claiming to see the Virgin emerged, including one woman of pious reputation. But the Church accepted only Bernadette as worthy, in part because her claims were so minimal--she never said that she saw the Virgin Mary--and because of the sanctity of her life thereafter. But there have been hundreds of reports of apparitions of the Virgin in the last two hundred years and the Church has accepted only a few as credible.

[JHavard]

If "your Father knows what you need before you ask Him," why ask?

Because we don't know what we need until we pray for what we think we need, then we see what God gave us, and we realize then, that he knew what was best, and we thank him that he didn't snswer us the way we thought he should.

Key words, "knows what you need" not what you want.

I hope you were just stimulating conversation with that question D-f. :-)

[OLD REGGIE]

" Are you trying to show the total futility to an appeal to Scripture by pointing out that we don't know WHAT Jesus said to Peter because we weren't there and probably wouldn't have understood him if we had been?

Do I correctly understand you to say "it is futile to appeal to Scripture" for the truth?

It appears you are now left with "Tradition" (and not much of that) and The Magesterium of the Church. Since most early Tradition would be eliminated, you would rely on the Magesterium of the Church. Fine. Do it your way.

[dignan3]

These links may be helpful:

Vatican II, Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation(Dei Verbum)
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Par. 51-73, The Revelation of God
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Par. 74-100, Transmission of Divine Revelation
Catechism of the Catholic Church, Par. 101-141, Sacred Scripture

Ora pro Ioannes Paulus II

[Havoc]

Where are you getting your information? Just wondering, 'cos the footnotes in my catholic bible (NAB) explain that the passage is talking about widows.

Why, Catholic answers to the nasty unscholarly Proddies of course.. :) Here's the reference:

This applies specifically to ministers of the gospel. When Paul counseled Timothy about how to fulfill his ministry, he cautioned him: "Share in suffering as a good soldier of Christ Jesus. No soldier on service gets entangled in civilian pursuits, since his aim is to satisfy the one who enlisted him" (2 Tim. 2:3-4). And Paul referred to an order of Christian celibate widows (first-century nuns), saying: "But refuse to enroll younger widows; for when they grow wanton against Christ they desire to marry, and so they incur condemnation for having violated their first pledge" (1 Tim. 5:11-12).

http://www.catholic.com/ANSWERS/TRACTS/inventn2.htm

Which tells me that whatever the topic, it really doesn't matter to the Catholic church so far as the two verses lifted seem to have something to do with their subject. If you lift the two verses from the context of the subject, they suddenly become something completely different. And if one pages over to them and just reads those two verses, then on it's face they've supported their argument. When you dig and actually read the whole passage, the claim falls flat on its face in shame.

[Havoc]

I think what is sad is that I have not heard of one protestant church that takes care of its widows, I have heard of some widows that have had all their money extracted from them by greedy preachers that don`t qualify the responsibility of our finances and guilttrip them into giving there small, not enough to pay the bills pensions to them so that they can add another wing onto an already huge ministry. Does your church have a plan for caring for its widows?

You won't find much disagreement here that much of what *calls itself christianity* turns it's back on it's duties to people. At the same time, others are more interested in works than in obedience. And neither diminishes the fact that Catholicism either A) will lie to support it's goals or B) hasn't the first clue what it is talking about. Yet many would have us believe they are the tower of truth. Stealing from John wayne again, "Not Hardly." Credibility means something. There is no real way that one can misconstrue that passage, which means Shoddy technique or outright lying.

[JHavard]

Hi Rb, I'm the Jim of the JHavard, and I'm glad to see your post and some new, fresh thoughts.

A lot of what we do here is express our ideas, and our convictions through the Holy Spirit that guides us, and still, although we are diverse in many beliefs, we are one in what is required for salvation.

The Catholics feel that the Holy Spirit expresses it's self by uniformity, and one mind on every subject, and we believe the Holy Spirit represents our personality, and truth at the same time, and allows for many different views on many subjects, as long as they are in the guide lines of the scripture.

Tell hubby Hi, and we'll be looking forward to hearing from him one of these days.JH

[dignan3]

So Catholic Answers=Catholic Church? Now if the Pope or some other Bishop made that comparison(of supposed first century nuns) then you may have some justification in your irritation. But the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, which is the Pope and the Bishops in union with him and NOT Catholic Answers, has not made that comparison so your irritation is unfounded.

You see that? That's your credibility flying away.

Pray for John Paul II

[Havoc]

If salvation can be lost by something we do or don`t do, I think it is not like God to leave us in the dark about how to lose it since it is so clear and easy to get. I see that when Jesus states no one can pluck them out of my hands, that means what it says and includes myself in the "no one".

Everything hinges on obedience. And John 10 makes clear that Christians are those actively hearing and obeying god. Anyone actively disobeying God is in sin. And the further one gets from God through disobedience, the more at risk they are of losing salvation - by their own choices. If one is being obedient, they've nothing to worry about because Satan has no rights to the obedient. But disobedience to God gives the devil rights to you (disobedience = sin). And considering all promises hinge on obedience, Continued disobedience cannot fullfill the promises of God in anyone's life - including the promise of eternal life. Play with God and you are playing with your soul. Too many wish to deny that God punishes people for disobedience. Acts chapter 5 shows us two people who toyed with God and were put to death for it by God. How does a Christian go to heaven when they died guilty of the unforgiveable sin? They were saved, yet, they were put to death after commiting blasphemy of the spirit - which god says he refuses to forgive (ie, one way ticket to the brimstone gates). But if they are forever saved, then God must forgive this sin before they can enter heaven - see the quandry.

Another much touted verse is the one in which Jesus states he has never lost any which God gave him charge over: They neglect to see where that statement continues on to say "save one" - Judas. Jesus himself states that no one gets a free ride just by saying that. He can only protect those who obey the will of God. And when Judas gave in to the Devil and betrayed the Lord, he sealed his own fate.

If you are obedient to God's word, you've nothing to worry about. If you are not, then you probably don't care to begin with or perhaps think you are getting by with something while God's away... If one is a Christian, Jesus spirit is in them. The spirit will not strive forever with one who is disobedient. Jesus said that if you defile his temple [yourself] He will destroy it.

BTW, Looks like we're hitting Afghanistan.

[Havoc]

So Catholic Answers=Catholic Church? Now if the Pope or some other Bishop made that comparison(of supposed first century nuns) then you may have some justification in your irritation. But the teaching authority of the Catholic Church, which is the Pope and the Bishops in union with him and NOT Catholic Answers, has not made that comparison so your irritation is unfounded.

Actually, no. We're not talking about merely the teaching authority.. We're talking about the obvious lack of ability to get it right - even in official responses to legit questions. And many have been doing a cut and paste of these official responses. It tells me a number of things:

1) The Catholics are willfully misrepresenting the Bible.
2) This puts you guys in a situation of having to trust them and it's obviously misplaced.
3) Those of you doing cut and paste don't know the stuff enough to think for yourselves and argue it on scripture.
4) The Catholic church thinks we're all stupid and cannot read for ourselves - and that ya'll are too or they wouldn't hand you weapons full of blanks and say defend this hill..

Just showing yet another missapplied verse used to buttress claims.