The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 156

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

The belief in a God All Powerful, wise and good, is essential to the moral order of the world and to the happiness of man. - James Madison

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 155

[Invincibly Ignorant]

Good. So there was a happy ending. Except for the Steelers, that is.

When he left CU he left my juristiction. Sorry.

[malakhi]

Thank you for your kind words, OR.

[SoothingDave]

In this group of words, you seem to ask and answer your own questions, as though you prefer to talk to your self, so there is nothing there for me to comment on.

I like to know at least one person has read and understood my words. Yes, sometimes I use different voices and different approaches in order to get my point across. Like yesterday I gave a better answer speaking as a Protestant than you did. I would like you to try to answer some question, any question seriously as a Catholic would. Or do you still have no idea how and why we think like we do?

How about this? Jesus actually says that if only two of us agree, anything we ask will be done by Our Father in Heaven. Isn't that amazing? Now if we could only learn to agree. That's the way it is with God. Always a catch.

This is really enlightening coming from an organization that needs papal authority to have a size #2 bowl movement.

Ah. Reasoned discourse. And you wonder why I talk amongst myself. How long, O Lord? How long?

How many doctrine and rituals do you have concerning the forgiveness of sin, than you take the high ground with us, and say, it is so simple, we don't even need Christ to do it, we can forgive each other.

I said no such thing. I tried to explain to you how we can act as channels of Christ's forgiveness, I said:

Jesus is not talking abotu us not needing Him, but rather how we can spread His forgiveness among our people. That you see anything that isn't direct "me and Jesus" as cutting Jesus out of the picture is to not understand the Community of all Believers.

And you, missing the fact that "forgiveness" and "love" are not synonyms, said

So you are saying that this account in Matthew is to show us to spread love around.

OK. I'm sorry you don't understand, but I was not saying that we don't need Christ for forgiveness. We can bring Christ's forgiveness to others through our actions and our lives.

I also did not say it was "simple." To the contrary, I pointed out that God promised us whatever we want if only two of us could agree on it. That you think I meant that it was easy must have been my failure to communicate.

SD

[the808bass]

The only thing unclear here is what is meant by the language of the Hebrews.

Not quite true. The interpretation of this passage depends on the interpretation of the word logia. "Matthew composed the logia in the Hebrew tongue and everyone interpreted them as he was able." If you are Matthean-priority guy or a Catholic, you interpret ta logia to be the Gospel of Matthew itself. Those who "interpreted" may then be the other Evangelists, who supposedly made use of Matthew to draw up their own accounts. The word logia (oracles) is an unusual word to use in referring to the Gospels. Another possiblity is that the word refers to a collection of the sayings of Jesus (such as the mythical beast "Q" or something like Q). This would be supported by the fact that there seems to be no internal evidence for Matthew being a translation.

[malakhi]

"Binding and loosing" was an expression referring to imposing religious obligations on people, or releasing them therefrom, by an authoritative decision.

Yes, meaning religious obligations imposed by the Torah. In Jewish use, it has no connotation relating to the forgiveness of sin. It seems that the gospel writers used the expression in a new way.

[the808bass]

Relying on a little higher criticism, are we?

Some of that is "higher criticism." However, the fact that Matthew uses the LXX for his OT quotations is quite interesting. If he was writing in Hebrew, why would he take the LXX and translate them into Hebrew. Why not just use the Hebrew directly?

[SoothingDave]

Yes, meaning religious obligations imposed by the Torah. In Jewish use, it has no connotation relating to the forgiveness of sin. It seems that the gospel writers used the expression in a new way.

Or not. We hold that Peter was given the ultimate power to bind and loose, meaning he was given this exact same power to determine religious obligations, to rule the Church in effect. And whatever he decided would be decided the same way in Heaven.

(Or to satisfy the808bass, who seems to think it makes a difference, he was given the power to decide what has already been decided in Heaven. This makes Peter an oracle of the Heavens, rather than an Actor himself, but the effect is the same -- what Peter says is true in Heaven.)

SD

[SoothingDave]

However, the fact that Matthew uses the LXX for his OT quotations is quite interesting. If he was writing in Hebrew, why would he take the LXX and translate them into Hebrew. Why not just use the Hebrew directly?

Maybe the translator (into Greek) just saved himself some time and substituted the already existing LXX verses where Matthew used the Hebrew ones in the original manuscript? All we know is that the LXX is quoted in the existing Greek manuscript.

SD

[the808bass]

All we know is that the LXX is quoted in the existing Greek manuscript.

So we agree that there is no internal evidence suggesting a translation? :)

[SoothingDave]

So we agree that there is no internal evidence suggesting a translation? :)

Actually I don't know anything except what other people tell me. :-)

Can you tell me how to call a man a big big rock in Greek?

SD

[D-fendr]

Thanks Bass, re:

"Kingdom of God"

Ok, does the subject have a predicate, the noun a verb? [be grateful I didn't ask for a definition :]

and:

"through me" means just what it says… Jesus is the path upon which one must travel to reach the Father."

Ok "through me" means "travel on me"

And you know I gotta ask: What does "travel on" me mean here.

[malakhi]

Can you tell me how to call a man a big big rock in Greek?

Not in Greek, but here is how The Dialectizer renders it:

ENGLISH: And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it.

REDNECK: An' ah tell yo', yer Peter, an' on this hyar rock ah will build mah church, an' th' powers of death shall not prevail aginst it.

JIVE: And ah' tell ya', ya' is Peter, and on dis rock ah' gots'ta build mah' church, and da damn powers uh dead shall not prevail against it. Man!

COCKNEY: And I tell yer, right, yor Peter, and on this rock I will build me church, and the powers of deaff shall not prevail against it.

ELMER FUDD: And I teww you, you awe Petew, and on this wock I wiww buiwd my chuwch, and the powews of deaf shaww not pwevaiw against it.

SWEDISH CHEF: Und I tell yuoo, yuoo ere-a Peter, und oon thees ruck I veell booeeld my choorch, und zee pooers ooff deet shell nut prefeeel egeeenst it. Um de hur de hur de hur.

[JHavard]

With pleasure. Angelo quoted John 20:22-23:
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit.
23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
You said, in response to Soothing Dave, to look at the preceeding verses. You then quoted Matthew 18:15-19. The events described in John and Matthew are not the same, hence my question.

I think you are both wrong on this, in Mt 18:15-18, Jesus is talking to the masses and the disciples, and he is telling them the way things will be.

In John 20:22-23, Christ is affirming what he had told them in Mt 18:15, by allowing them to be the first to receive the Holy Spirit, which was a prerequisite to the instructions he gave them in Matthew.

Then he reminded them, that now, that he have given them the Holy Spirit, they were the first to have his authority and his blessing to forgive one another’s sins.
Then as the members received the Holy Spirit, they to had this same authority.

Thomas missed out on the first giving of the Holy Spirit, I wonder if Christ gave it to him on the eighth day, or if he had to wait until Pentecost? Hummmmm

Note, that in verse 20, they were still disciples, and not referred to as apostles at this point.

[SoothingDave]

Then he reminded them, that now, that he have given them the Holy Spirit, they were the first to have his authority and his blessing to forgive one another’s sins. Then as the members received the Holy Spirit, they to had this same authority.

What authority? To forgive one another's sins? But not the important sins which only God can forgive, right? Are you saying that before Jesus gave them this "power" that the Jews were incapable of forgiving the minor transgressions they made against each other? I need a special mandate from God to forgive you when you harm me and ask to be forgiven?

And why don't you understand that there is no sin that does not involve God as an aggreived party? There is no such thing as a sin just against one person.

SD

[the808bass]

Can you tell me how to call a man a big big rock in Greek?

I was going to post the Middle-Eastern Insultomatic that I got in a cute little book called "Wicked Greek" but thought in light of recent events it might be mistaken for something else. :(

A big rock - petra, petros (more of a Classical usage), and chermadion

[SoothingDave]

Can you tell me how to call a man a big big rock in Greek?

A big rock - petra, petros (more of a Classical usage), and chermadion

Would you call a man "petra"? That is a feminine word, right?

What exactly do you mean by "Classical"?

SD

[SoothingDave]

Scene: Judea circa 400 BC. Night. Two Hebrew tribesmen tend to their flock.

Jew #1: Say old chap, I'm terribly sorry. I appear to have accidently butchered one of your sheep by mistake. Please have the pick of my flock as restitution and forgive my trespass.

Jew #2: I'm sorry, I can't possibly forgive you. The Messiah hasn't come yet.

The End.

SD

[JHavard]

What authority? To forgive one another's sins? But not the important sins which only God can forgive, right? Are you saying that before Jesus gave them this "power" that the Jews were incapable of forgiving the minor transgressions they made against each other? I need a special mandate from God to forgive you when you harm me and ask to be forgiven?

I swear, you have been morphing back and forth from Catholic to Protestant so long, I think you have lost your idenity, at least the ability to communicate.

I'll respond to you when I can understand which hat you are wearing.