The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 152

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

Amendment I

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The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 151

[Conservative til I die]

Only God can forgive sins? Eh? You might want to check again: (Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

[JHavard]

In the link that you sugested we go to to find an impartial story on "Peter's Tomb" they make the following comment.

Saint John's Gospel contained a passage in which Christ prophesied Peter's death: When you are old, then you will stretch out your hands and another will bind you and take you where you do not want to go.[10] The phrase "to stretch out one's hands" is found in literature of the time referring to crucifixion.[11] Certainly the Christian church at Rome claimed Peter as a martyr and founder of along with Paul as early as the end of the first century AD. And another Roman tradition which we can trace back to the third century AD added the detail that Peter asked his persecutors to turn his cross upside down, because he was unworthy to die in the same manner as Jesus.

This was not the first time I have heard this claim, that was based on John saying that Peter was to be crucified up side down. Let's read what it does say.

Jn 21:18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

If you read what this says, and not what you wish it said, you will see that it tells us that Peter is going to die of old age, not martyrdom.

"another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not."

(Paraphrase)When you are young, you get up, you get dressed and go where you please, but when you grow old, others have to dress you, and take you where they are going, not where you want to go.

If they had read the first part of the scripture they would have known this.

This is just one more fable foisted on a gulable public.

[JHavard]

Hey Friend, when you and Becky have time, you must read the link that SD put up earlier concerning Peter's Tomb, it's a riot, but you have to read the whole thing.

One part that was comical but sad was that one of the popes that was all excited about the digging, lost all intrest when he found out they were just finding bones down there, he had expected to see a pope buried in a bronz casket probably with purple and gold covering and studded with diamonds. You'll love it.+<;-)

http://www.ucd.ie/~classics/96/Curran96.html

[RobbyS]

Pope" means "Father" No, it means something more like "Grandfather". Call no man grandfather?

[RobbyS]

You can crucify a man just be tying him to the cross with rope. Its the hanging there that kills, not the way the person is fastened.

[Conservative til I die]

Thanks for the correction. It shows how much more silly such arguments are.

[JHavard]

Jn 20:23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

Men can forgive other men's sins against him personally, if the person repents first, then ask the one he sined against to forgive him, but no man can unilaterally forgive sins that go before God as a sinners repentence and his turning away from sin.

Paul cleared this up

2 Cor 2:10 To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ;
V-11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

Luke 17:4 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. V-4 And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.

Mk 2:10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

Mk 2:7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

Even the Pharisees understood that no man has power to forgive spiritual sins. We can forgive the little sin's of everyday life that are necessary in a community of believers or even non-believers, but not the sins that when forgiven, give us eternal life .

[JHavard]

You can crucify a man just be tying him to the cross with rope. Its the hanging there that kills, not the way the person is fastened.

I have no idea what so ever what you two are talking about, but since you seem to like each others answers, I'll go to bed, and let you two finish the debate.g-nite

[dadwags]

re #177
Excuse me, but where in the Bible does it say that Peter had a wife that was alive ? We know that he had a mother in law , but his wife coulde have been
1:Alive and there
2?Alive and previously "put away"
3:deceased .
Actually, IMHO, for us, it is a non issue .His wife, for all i know, is never mentioned ,

[Havoc]

"Receive the holy Spirit. 23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

I think you overlook God in the verse. Mere men can only forgive sins committed against them. It is the spirit in them that does more, not the men. So, I say again, no Church is able to forgive sin - only God can. Just as no man is capable of miracles - only God is capable of that. Miracles happen because of God, not because of any man. Which is why so many people decieve themselves in following "healers" - the healer has no power of himself. God can and does work through men; but, absent the Holy spirit and a given man's obedience to God - ain't nuttin there.

[dadwags]

As we start down the road to thread 200, it looks kike the new standard is to be 200 posts per thread ? Just wondering .