The Neverending Story (The Christian Chronicles) -- Thread 151

Southern Baptists ending talks with Catholic Church ^ | 3/24/01 | AP

[malakhi]

The Neverending Story
An ongoing debate on Scripture, Tradition, History and Interpretation.

"I have seen in the last week much ugly use of religion for chest thumping and blaming 'ragheads' and even blaming our decadence for the events of the last week. I would rather that we continue here, respectful of our unity in citizenship, in displaying how religion can be talked about without veering off into ugliness." (SoothingDave, 9/19/01)

Threads 1-50

Threads 51-100

Threads 101-150

[poet]

Isn't that at the heart of the animosity? I'm speaking of doctrinairre responses.
IMO, literal translations from the Hebrew and Greek are difficult unless we know the meaning of the words in the respective languages: For example:

In John Chapter 21, Verses 15-17 Christ asked Peter 3 times if he (Peter) loved Him and Peter said yes 3 times, in verse 17, it says Peter was grieved because Christ asked him 3 times if he loved him. On the surface if a husband or wife asked the other 3 consecutive times, we would be aggravated, no?

Let's insert the Greek words for love in the verses, to wit:
Agopi= All consuming stemming from Yahweh
Feleo: Love of a friend, parent, etc.
Christ asked Peter if he recognized Him with Agopi love;

Peter replied, Yea, Lord, Thou knowest everything, thou knowest that I feleo thee;
Christ asked him two times about Agopi love and Peter
answered with Friendship love;
The third time, Christ asked him if he loved Him as a friend and Peter walked away grieved because Christ had made him realize that at that point in time, Peter was lacking.

That's my take on it after discussing it with some people. I'm open minded about it, but, it makes sense.
Any comments

[pegleg]

What I'm reading re: these posts: Is intense criticsm of each others beliefs. Again, I refer you to 1 Corinthians Chapter 12, Verse 9-21 entitled: "Behave Like A Christian".

Most of the critcism your are reading has more to do with unsubstantiated assertions more so than beliefs. We could all just agree to disagree and these threads could end today, but that wouldn't be any fun. I do agree though we all need to tone down the rhetroic. Steven offered a heartfelt apology and I did acknowlwdge it on thread 152.

Are we not getting hung up by semantics.

Not really. We are getting hung up on providing credible sources for our claims. Some posters offer none for there claims and just assert, without proof, that Catholic documentation is bogus. It's what I call the Lorraine Boettner syndrome.

[RnMomof7]

She is starting to get back to her sweet old self thank you...hope everything goes well at the crusades *grin*

[poet]

Is it possible Christ was talking about a geographical location/type of place?
I believe Petra means rock in the Greek. Are we assuming that He was referring to Peter?

[JHavard]

literal translations from the Hebrew and Greek are difficult unless we know the meaning of the words in the respective languages:

I agree that we no doubt loose some of the meaning when we translate, but don't you think God allowed for that?

If it hadn't been for the recorded words of the disciples, (Through the Holy Spirit) we wouldn’t have an accurate record of a thing Christ said in his ministry, so wouldn't he make sure those disciples heard exactly what he wanted them to hear?

Any confusion would surely have been straightened out when the Holy Spirit guided them in what they wrote down, otherwise finding salvation would be like finding the magic word that opens all doors to the finder only, and your lost if you aren’t one of the blessed few.

It's like a Church I heard of in West Virginia that called it's self by one of God's Hebrew names, and they argued that God didn't hear your prayers unless you used his secret decoder ring name.

Salvation is not hidden or cloaked from us, it is the simplest thing in the New Testament to figure out, it's when you go beyond salvation’s needs that we start to complicate things and picking at words and intent rather then simple salvation.

Peter replied, Yea, Lord, Thou knowest everything, thou knowest that I feleo thee;
Christ asked him two times about Agopi love and Peter answered with Friendship love;

Peter heard Christ ask him the same question three different times,(Strongs Greek word #5368 Phileo love) and he got upset over it but even today, we humans take three times before anything get's our full attention, similar to the story we were told in the Corps about three on a match. #1 gets your attention, #2 you look for it and aim in the direction, #3 you fire when it shows the third time. I'm sure that it stuck with Peter, asking himself, why did he do that.

Christ asked him two times about Agopi love and Peter answered with Friendship love;

If this were true, it was Christ that failed to communicate to Peter what he was really asking him, and as Peter said,"Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee."If Peter was confused, this response covered the whole matter, "thou knowest"

[JHavard]

Huh!!! Pardon my ignorance, but, I did not understand a word of your post after you quoted me.

BTW, My question was in reply to your #174, not your #176

Sorry, but I was being funny and I got a good laugh out of it even if you didn't.LoL

Seriously, you asked,
If true, how do you explain I Corinthians Chapter 14, Verses 34 & 35? 34: "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but, they are to be submissive as the law also says"<
35: "It is shameful for women to speak in church"

I have to relay a little story that happened many moons ago, my wife and I had gone to a holiness Church for the first time, and they had a lady minister, and it bothered me from the same scripture base you gave.

a couple of weeks later they paid us a visit, and asked if we intended to come back again, and I told her no, that I felt that 1 Cor 14, made it clear that women weren't to preach in the Church to which she said,

You have to understand the way things were back then, The Synagogues were giant in size, and the women were made to sit in the back of the Church, and the men sat up front, well the women could never hear what the Priest was saying, so they used to yell up at their husbands and ask,

"What did he say",

and it got so bad that they had to make a rule that women couldn't yell out during services and that is why Paul wrote what he did.

You have to give her credit for originality anyway, ha ha ha.I think Billy Graham and his daughter worked it out pretty well even as gifted as she is, and they have found plenty of ways for her to use her many talents with out using an authoritative position in the Church over men.

In to days world, the only reason I can give for taking that command seriously is, "Because it says so" If you can reason around it, what one is there that can’t be reasoned around?

[poet]

Christ spoke in precise terms and in parables and when the disciples did not understand, he wpold explain the parable.

I also use the Holy name Yahweh when speaking of the creator and it's not because I belong to any church. I haven't been in a church for 30 years because my Spirit is not uplifted by their sermons. Modern churces have no fire or passion and I have been to Catholic, Presbytarian, Mormon, Jehovah Witnesss sermons and none of them move me or inspire me.
In addition, they don't even obey Scripture relative to the Sabbath: Saturday is the seventh day not Sunday (check the dictionary). Pagan rituals and holidays have crept into our teachings. Do you deny that Christmas was instituted by the early church as a counter to the pagan Saturnalia celebration? How about Easter? Doesn't that have its derivation from Ishtar?

[poet]

I also use Yashua Messiah when referring to Christ. As for your comment relative to women speaking in church, your story sounds apocryphal, therefore, I will accept the scriptures quote thank you.

[ultimate]

yet Paul soundly rebuked Peter. Would he dare to rebuke the Pope?

Why not? Do you think Catholics think the Pope IS God? I've even written letters to the Pope rebuking him. We rebuke our Bishops and our Priests. This is done in a respectful manner. We pray for them. The difference between Catholics and Protestants is that Catholics accept the authority of their office.

Unlike Protestants, we don't divorce the Church. We stay, pray and agitate for reform if we think it is needed. Sometimes it comes and sometimes it doesn't. In either case we are right with God because we have done our part. We always know the Truth because we have our Councils and Cathecisms that go back to the beginning so we can see what CAN be changed and what cannot. We are taught that there is a difference between God's eternal truths and Church laws.

In this way we demonstrate our love for Our Lord by trying not to be an obstacle to His prayer for unity.