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To: JHavard and Havoc
Needless to say I was very disappointed in your responses to my question about the number and order of references to Peter in the New Testament. I have frequently posed questions for all non-Catholics to consider or asked for explanations of passages or writings that seem to clearly indicate different meanings than those you all attribute to them. This is especially true with respect to the big picture. Very seldom do I receive a serious answer if I receive an answer at all.

I have assumed that my writing has not been as clear as I intended,or.that you at this point in your journey cannot perceive the meaning of many passages. Because I believe that Jesus did not die on a cross so that His followers could spend their time on earth nitpicking,I have dropped the subjects.

But each time this has happened I am more firmly committed to and grateful for the Catholic Church. It seems clear that a Loving God, Who created us in His image and sent His Son to explain things to us would establish a visible Church with a visible Vicar. Because He created us to live with one another he needed to ensure that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth didn't get twisted and confused by the many, who, while loving God, often so want the Holy Spirit to conform to their desires. It is the nature of man to want to live with minimal cognitive-dissonance,consequently,man seeks to interpret God's Will as much closer to his will than it seems to be,given the givens.

Finally, and this is for J.Havard,I was widowed at 27 and had a mother-in-law for 15 more years so it seems silly to me to assume that Peter was married. Especially in light of the fact that as soon as she was healed she got up from her sick bed and started serving them. Do you think that her own daughter wss not with her sick mother? Wouldn't she have been taking care of serving? Ask enough questions and get some glimpses of probable reality. This also explains Corintians 9:5,and,have you ever thought about Jesus's Mother,He asked her to watch John and John to watch her. I think that probably none of the apostles were married. After all why did Jesus tell so many that they had to leave possessions and family to follow Him? I never read that he excepted wives,did you?

55 posted on 09/28/2001 1:11:23 AM PDT by saradippity
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To: saradippity
Finally, and this is for J.Havard,I was widowed at 27 and had a mother-in-law for 15 more years so it seems silly to me to assume that Peter was married. Especially in light of the fact that as soon as she was healed she got up from her sick bed and started serving them. Do you think that her own daughter wss not with her sick mother? Wouldn't she have been taking care of serving? Ask enough questions and get some glimpses of probable reality. This also explains Corintians 9:5,and,have you ever thought about Jesus's Mother,He asked her to watch John and John to watch her. I think that probably none of the apostles were married. After all why did Jesus tell so many that they had to leave possessions and family to follow Him? I never read that he excepted wives,did you?

sara.. I was reading in the CE, trying to find out the succession order of the popes, and by accident ran into this.

Please comment.

Under Peter, Saint

Simon settled in Capharnaum, where he was living with his mother-in-law in his own house (Matthew 8:14; Luke 4:38) at the beginning of Christ's public ministry (about A.D. 26-28). Simon was thus married, and, according to Clement of Alexandria (Stromata, III, vi, ed. Dindorf, II, 276), had children. The same writer relates the tradition that Peter's wife suffered martyrdom (ibid., VII, xi ed. cit., III, 306). Concerning these facts, adopted by Eusebius (Hist. Eccl., III, xxxi) from Clement, the ancient Christian literature which has come down to us is silent. Simon pursued in Capharnaum the profitable occupation of fisherman in Lake Genesareth, possessing his own boat (Luke 5:3).

(NOTE) Since I have pointed out previously how Euseius could not be totally trusted in his conclusions, I will not consider it proof of my personal theory of why Peter was considered the leader because of his age and position in life.

84 posted on 09/28/2001 8:12:19 AM PDT by JHavard
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To: saradippity
He created us to live with one another he needed to ensure that the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth didn't get twisted and confused by the many, who, while loving God, often so want the Holy Spirit to conform to their desires.

Back at ya. Remember Matthew 1;25?

104 posted on 09/28/2001 9:07:25 AM PDT by Invincibly Ignorant
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To: saradippity
MARRIED POPES YEAR OF PAPACY NOTES
St. Peter, Apostle D.C. - 64 A.D. First married pope.
St. Felix III 483 - 492 Two children.
St. Hormidas 514 - 523 Married before ordination.
St. Silverus 536 - 537 Wife's name: Antonia.
Hadrian II 867 - 872 One daughter.
Clement IV 1265 - 1268 Two daughters.
Felix V 1439 - 1449 One son.

POPES WHO WERE SONS OF POPES AND OTHER CLERGY YEAR OF PAPACY HIS FATHER
St. Damasus I 366 - 384 St. Lorenzo, priest
St. Innocent I 401 - 417 Pope Anastasius I
Boniface 418 - 422 A priest
St. Felix 483 - 492 A priest
Anastasius II 496 - 498 A priest
St. Agapitus I 535 - 536 Gordianus, priest
St. Silverius 536 - 537 Pope St. Hormidas
Deusdedit 615 - 618 Stephen, sub-deacon
Theodore I 642 - 649 A bishop
Marinus I 882 - 884 A priest
Boniface VI 896 Bishop Hadrian
John XI 931 - 935 Pope Sergius III
John XV 989 - 996 Leo, priest

POPES WHO FATHERED CHILDREN AFTER THE CELIBACY LAW OF 1139 YEAR OF PAPACY NOTES
Innocent III 1484 - 1492 Several children.
Alexander VI 1492 - 1503 2 grandchildren were Cardinals.
Julius 1503 - 1513 Three daughters.
Paul III 1534 - 1549 One daughter, three sons.
Pius IV 1559 - 1565 Three sons.
Gregory XIII 1572 - 1585 One son.

Sources:
Kelly, J. N. D. The Oxford Dictionary of Popes. Oxford Press. 1986.
H.C. Lea. History of Sacerdotal Celibacy in the Christian Church. 1957.
E. Schillebeeckx. The Church with a Human Face. Crossroad, 1985.
U. Ranke-Heinemann. Eunuchs for the Kingdom of Heaven. Doubleday, 1990.
A. L. Barstow. Married Priests and the Reforming Papacy. The Edward Mellen Press, 1982. ------------------------------------------------------------

1 Corinthians 9:

1 Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?
2 If to others I am not an apostle, at least I am to you; for you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.
3 This is my defense to those who would examine me.
4 Do we not have the right to our food and drink?
5 Do we not have the right to be accompanied by a wife, as the other apostles and the brothers of the Lord and Cephas?
------------------------------------------------------------
Luke 4:38 Luke 4 Luke 4:37-39
And he arose and left the synagogue, and entered Simon's house. Now Simon's mother-in-law was ill with a high fever, and they besought him for her.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Do you seriously believe Peter and other Popes weren't married?

Married clergy is nothing but a matter of discipline. The Church can decide that a Priest-Bishop-Pope may, or must, be married and voila! it is so.

169 posted on 09/28/2001 2:21:44 PM PDT by OLD REGGIE
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