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Whatever Happened To Repentance?
9/20/01 | David Wilkerson

Posted on 09/19/2001 9:06:44 PM PDT by RnMomof7

"Whatever Happened To Repentance?"
by David Wilkerson, pastor of Times Square Church, New York City - August 2, 1999

Whatever happened to repentance? You rarely hear the word mentioned in most churches today — even in Baptist, Pentecostal or evangelical circles. Pastors nowadays seldom call for their congregations to sorrow over sin — to mourn and grieve over wounding Christ by their wickedness.

Instead, the message we hear from many pulpits today is, "Just believe. Accept Christ, and you'll be saved." The text used to justify this message is Acts 16:30-31.

In this passage, the apostle Paul was being held in jail when suddenly the earth shook and all the cell doors opened. The jailer immediately thought all the prisoners had fled, which meant he faced execution. In despair, he drew his sword and was about to kill himself when Paul and Silas stopped him, assuring him no one had escaped.

Seeing this, the man fell down before the apostles and cried out, "…Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

As we read this passage, it's important to remember that the jailer was on the verge of suicide, with sword in hand. He was already at a point of repentance — on his knees, broken and trembling, before the apostles. So his heart was truly prepared to accept Jesus in genuine faith.

In the gospel of Mark, Christ tells his disciples, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned" (Mark 16:16). It's clear from what Jesus says here that salvation is found in simply accepting him and being baptized.

However, Jesus prefaces his statement with this word: "…Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (verse 15). He's saying, in essence, that before people can believe in him, the gospel must first be preached to them.

And what is this gospel Jesus refers to? It's the gospel that Jesus himself preached — the gospel of repentance!

Think about it — what was the first message Jesus delivered, after he emerged from the temptation in the wilderness? Scripture says, "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 4:17).

Jesus called people to repent before he even called them to believe! Mark writes, "…Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mark 1:14-15). Christ preached, "Repent first — and believe."

Elsewhere Jesus says of his mission, "…I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13). And he told the Galileans, "I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Jesus' gospel was all about repentance!


John the Baptist Also Preached Repentance,
to Prepare Israel for the Coming of Christ.


John's message to the Jews was simple and straightforward: "In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, and saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matthew 3:1-2).

People came from everywhere to hear John preach. And he told them in no uncertain terms: "The messiah is soon to appear in your midst — so, you'd better get ready to meet him! You may feel excited that he's coming. But I'm telling you, your hearts are not prepared — because you're still holding onto your sins!

"Outside you appear clean and holy. But inside, you're full of dead men's bones! You're a generation of vipers, snakes, with absolutely no fear of God. Yet you have no concept that you're even sinners. I warn you — you must deal with your sin before you can believe on the savior and follow him. So, repent, turn from your sin -- and live in a way that reflects genuine change!"

What gospel did Peter preach to the masses on the day of Pentecost? The Bible tells us that when the people heard the apostle testify, "...they were pricked in their heart, and said...Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:37-38).

Peter didn't tell these people just to "believe and be saved." He didn't ask them to merely make a decision, to cast a vote for Jesus. No -- he told them to repent fast, and then be baptized in obedience to Christ!

What gospel did Paul preach to the pagan Athenians on Mars Hill? He told them very directly, "...God...now commandeth all men every where to repent" (Acts 17:30).

These Greek intellectuals had no trouble believing in God. In fact, you could say their very pastime was "believing." They believed in many gods -- first this one, then that one. Whenever someone came along preaching a god persuasively, they believed in it. So, they believed -- but they did it while living in sin. Simple belief wasn't enough!

Paul told these men, "No, no -- that's not, Christ! Jesus can't simply be added to your list of gods. You may believe in them all, but you can't merely do that with Jesus. He has come to save you from your sins. And he commands all his followers to repent and be cleansed!"

Later, Paul preached the same gospel of repentance to King Agrippa: "...I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: but shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance" (Acts 26:19-20).

Paul is saying, "Everywhere I've been, I've preached repentance. And genuine repentance proves itself by its actions!"

These passages make clear to us that the apostolic church preached unabashedly the same gospel John and Jesus preached: "Repent for the remission of your sins!"


What Does It Mean To Repent?


Some Christians believe repentance means simply to "turn around" and go in the opposite direction. But the Bible tells us repentance is much more than this.

I once heard a man say, "I'm so glad I know New Testament Greek. It translates the word 'repent' as meaning, 'to change one's mind.'"

No -- this man doesn't know his Greek! The full, literal meaning of the word "repent" in the New Testament is "to feel remorse and self-reproach for one's sins against God; to be contrite, sorry; to want to change direction." The difference in meanings here rests on the word "Want." True repentance includes a desire to change!

Moreover, simply being sorry doesn't constitute repentance. Rather, true sorrow leads to repentance. Paul states, "Godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death" (2 Corinthians 7:10).

Paul is speaking here of a sorrow that's without regrets -- one that's genuine, that "sticks" in the life of the repentant person. This kind of godly sorrow naturally produces a repentance that includes a hatred for sin, a righteous fear of God and a desire to right all wrongs.

It shouldn't surprise us, then, that Paul preached repentance to believers. He delivered a strong message of repentance to the Christians in Corinth. The Corinthian believers had been richly blessed by God, having sat under mighty teachers of the word. Yet their congregation remained rife with sin.

First Paul testifies to the Corinthians, "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12). But then Paul tells them very directly: "I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find you such as I would..." (verse 20).

What was Paul's fear? It was simply this: "Lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed" (verse 21).

This tenderhearted shepherd loved the compromising saints in Corinth. Yet he knew they'd been well-taught that a lifestyle of gross sin was wrong. And he told them, "When I come to visit you, you're going to see me hanging my head in grief. My eyes will flow with tears, and my voice will wail in sorrow.

"If I see you continuing to indulge in uncleanness, fornication and lust, I'll be utterly broken -- because the gospel has not done its work in your heart. You haven't yet repented of your sin. And I will call you loudly to repent!"

As I read Paul's words, I find myself examining my own ministry And I have to ask, "Have I cut short the gospel Jesus preached -- the gospel of repentance? Have I essentially taken scissors to my Bible and removed the higher cost of following Christ? Have I lowered his standard by telling people, 'Just believe and be saved'?"

As I look at the church today, I wonder: Do we evangelicals insist on a biblical "godly sorrow" as evidence of true repentance? Or are we leading masses of unrepentant people into a false peace? Are we wrongly instructing them that all God requires of them is to say, "I believe in you, Jesus"?

Have we cut short genuine conviction for sins? Have we jumped in and offered salvation to those who haven't actually repented -- who haven't sorrowed over their trespasses, who haven't seen the exceeding sinfulness of their sins, who have sought faith so they could merely hide their lusts behind it?

We constantly hear awful exaggerations about the numbers of people who come to Jesus through various ministries. Christians report that scores of people were saved as they preached in prisons, schools, tribal meetings. They say, "Everybody in the place gave his heart to Jesus. When I finished preaching, they all came forward for salvation."

No -- that is a tragic exaggeration! All too often, what actually happens is that everyone simply repeats a prayer. They merely pray what they're told to pray -- and few of them grasp what they're saying. Then most go back to their heathen ways!

Such people never experience a deep work of the Holy Spirit. As a result, they never repent, never sorrow over their sins -- and never truly believe. Tragically, we've offered them something Jesus himself never offered -- salvation without repentance!

I believe the church has even taken the feeling out of conviction. Think about it -- you hardly ever see tears on the cheeks of those who are being saved anymore. Of course, I know tears don't save anyone. But God made us all human, with very real feelings. And any hell-bound sinner who has been moved upon by the Holy Spirit naturally feels a profound sorrow over the ways he has grieved the Lord.

The apostle Peter felt this kind of godly sorrow, when he denied knowing Jesus. Suddenly, he was flooded with the memory of what Jesus had told him: "Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he Wept" (Mark 14:72).

As Peter remembered these words, he was overcome with emotion. And suddenly, he went running through Jerusalem, weeping, "I've betrayed the Lord!"

Beloved, we simply cannot work up that kind of repentance in our own flesh. Only the Holy Spirit can reveal to us how, like Peter, we also have wounded our loving savior. And that revelation ought to fill us with deep sorrow!

I don't agree with all of the Puritan writers' doctrine, but I love their emphasis on holiness. These godly preachers called their sermons "deep ploughing." They believed they couldn't sow true seeds of faith until the soil of their listeners' hearts had been deeply plowed.

So the Puritans made sure their preaching went deep, cracking all the fallow ground of their listeners' souls. Their sermons produced genuine repentance in their congregations. And, in turn, over the years this produced strong, mature, faithful Christians.

Today, however, most preaching is all sowing with no plowing. I hear very few sermons nowadays that dig deeper than the topsoil. Deep plowing doesn't just address the disease of sin; it digs down to the very cause of the disease. Much of the preaching we hear today focuses on the remedy while ignoring the disease. It offers a prescription without providing surgery!

Sadly, we cause people to think they've been healed of sin when they never knew they were sick. We put robes of righteousness on them when they never knew they were naked. We urge them to trust in Christ when they don't even know their need to trust. Such people end up thinking, "It can't hurt to add Jesus to my life."

C.H. Spurgeon, the powerful English preacher, said the following about the need for repentance:

"I trust that sorrowful penitence does still exist, though I have not heard much about it lately. People seem to jump into faith very quickly nowadays...I hope my old friend repentance is not dead. I am desperately in love with repentance; it seems to be the twin sister of faith.

"I do not myself understand much about dry-eyed faith; I know that I came to Christ by the way of weeping-cross...When I came to Calvary by faith, it was with great weeping and supplication, confessing my transgressions, and desiring to find salvation in Jesus, and in Jesus only."


Why did we preach the law for so long in our church? We did it because many in our congregation were calling themselves Christians -- yet their lives didn't reflect it!

In those early years, many people came forward to the altar at the end of every service. They repeated a pastoral prayer and "accepted salvation by faith." Yet, most of those people never felt any conviction for their sin. They didn't experience godly sorrow -- and so their lives didn't reveal true repentance.

Supposedly repentant theater actors professed Christ on Sunday but went back to their blasphemous shows during the week. Homosexuals prayed for salvation but still indulged in their sinful lifestyle. Others confessed Jesus at our altar yet continued their adulterous affairs, fornication or drug use.

This is why we thundered conviction from our pulpit! The Holy Ghost led our pastoral team to expose all sin, rebellion and disobedience to his word. We preached hell so hot, people got up and left our services. And we preached heaven so real, compromisers trembled at the awesome reality of Christ's holiness.

Our preaching of the law was absolutely necessary at that time. It is God's mirror, revealing every hidden, secret thing. And it brought the people in our congregation to an awareness of the exceeding sinfulness of sin.

While some people ran out, others ran forward in genuine repentance. One of these was a booming-voiced actor named David Davis. He surrendered all to Jesus in true repentance. And today, he and his wife pastor a thriving church in Israel, where they've preached Christ for almost ten years.

While the true work of repentance was accomplishing its purpose in our church, the Holy Spirit then led us to preach the glory of grace. We taught on the New Covenant, on power over sin through the Holy Spirit, on walking by faith. In short, we began to build up the saints.

Through that whole experience, we also discovered the dangers of preaching only the law and focusing primarily on sin. If people are given a steady diet of this message alone, they begin to lose hope and wallow in despair, thinking, "I'll never measure up." They constantly turn inward rather than looking to the cross for hope.

Yet when a church is the Lord's, it can trust God's Spirit to bring the message of the law whenever it's needed. If Jesus sees his people lapsing into an "easy believism," he'll once again bring the lash of the law upon them, with all mercy and grace.

You see, repentance isn't a one-time experience. It's not some hurricane that strikes once and then is gone forever. Nor do we experience repentance only in a moment of crisis, and then merely talk about it the rest of our lives. No -- sorrow for sin should be our constant teacher!

Spurgeon testified, "I freely confess that I have a very much greater sorrow for sin today than I had when I came to the savior more than thirty years ago. I hate sin more intensely now than I did when I was under conviction. There are some things that I did not know to be sin then, that I know to be sin now. I have a much keener sense of the vileness of my own heart now than when I first came to Christ...

"Sorrow for sin is a perpetual rain, a sweet, soft shower, which to a truly saved man lasts all his life long...He is always sorrowful that he has sinned...He will never stop grieving until all sin has gone."


You may remember the seven churches that John mentions in Revelation 2. Among them is the church of Ephesus -- a congregation Jesus commends very highly.

I like to think of our church in Times Square as being like the Ephesian church. That body of believers labored in one of the world's most populous cities, never fainting in the midst of vile wickedness. The people lived sacrificially, hated sin and refused to accept false doctrines. They stood strong in faith, loving God with all their heart no matter what temptations Satan threw at them.

Yet Christ knew something was amiss among these people. And he so loved this church — it was such a bright lamp to the nations — he wasn't about to sit idly by and let it die. So he told the Ephesians, "Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love" (Revelation 2:4).

Jesus was saying, "Your fire is going out! The love for me that once motivated your faithfulness is waning. You once bore my burden for the lost — but now you're satisfied merely to sit and listen to sermons. You've become totally engrossed in your own personal concerns, and you're ignoring mine. You've fallen far from where you once stood!"

Jesus then tells them, "Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen…" (verse 5). He's saying, "Think back! You used to yearn to come to my house, to be with my saints, to bear my burden. But now an hour on Sunday morning is plenty for you!"

So, dear Christian — are you still on fire for Jesus? Are you in love with him as passionately as when you first got saved? Or have you lost interest in his concerns, forsaking all ministry? Do you have too much else going on in your life? If so, the Lord says to you, "I've got something against you. You've left your first love!"

Listen to what Jesus says to us at this point: "…repent, and do the first works…" (same verse). He's saying, "Mourn over your growing apathy. Be contrite — take it seriously. Then let your grief lead you back to where you were when you first loved me!"

Christ then gives us a word that lets us know we'd better take heed. He says, "…or else…" (same verse). He immediately spells out the consequence: "…I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick…" (same verse).

Jesus is saying here that unless we repent, he's going to remove all the spiritual authority we've been given. This includes our influence on our city, our community, our neighborhood, those in our sphere of influence. Every bit of influence we have will be taken from us, he says, "Except ye repent!"

Right now, churches across the world are shutting their doors. Their lights are literally being turned out — because that's the judgment they incur for refusing to repent! God said they would lose their discernment, their spiritual blessings, their finances, his very presence. Now they're dead, lifeless, with only memories of his past blessings.

I preached in many such churches thirty years ago. At that time they were packed with zealous believers. Today, barely a dozen people sit in their pews. Soon they'll dwindle to nothing, and their doors will shut for good. God has written "Ichabod" over their doors — meaning, "The Spirit of the Lord has departed!"

Yet, beloved, God gives this same message to every Christian individually. He says, "If you refuse to repent — if you remain in your apathy — I'll remove your lampstand. You'll no longer have any influence over your family, your coworkers — anyone!"

This is exactly what happened to the Ephesian church. God waited patiently — over 1,000 years, in fact — for that church to repent. Yet finally the time came when their backsliding was more than he could endure.

The historian Gibbon writes: "The first candlestick of Ephesus was extinguished. The barbarous lords of Ionia and Lydia trampled on the remains of Christianity. Now the Mohammedan mosques invoke the god of Mohammed. Only the church of Philadel-phia still stands erect."

Yet, even as we read these words, we are not to fear. Jesus ends his admonition to us this way: "…To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God" (Revelation 2:7).

Dear saint, Jesus is that tree! He's telling us, "If you'll repent, I'll give you constant life from my very being. And as long as you continue to love me, I will provide a flow of supernatural life in you. This life will be revealed in your discernment, your love for people, your good works for my kingdom!"

This is the trait that distinguishes every Christian who's truly in love with Jesus. Such a believer is full of life — and everyone around him knows it!

Jesus promises that your godly sorrow, your repentant heart and your renewed love for him will lead you to life. So, pray to him right now: "Lord, give me a truly repentant heart. Take me back to who I was when I was first in love with you. Yet, this time take me farther, deeper in you, than I've ever been before!"

As you repent, God's Spirit will begin to produce in you a new revelation of the glory of Christ. And he'll make it known to everyone around you!



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To: White Mountain
With all due respect, I have to object. Uriel does not call names and hurl damnation. When he misstates the position of someone else, he apologizes graciously. Uriel does not sneak around in FRmail and bash people and play games with "misaddressed" FRmail. Uriel doesn't call a woman a lying heretic whore ever. Uriel does not support the views of a woman who has now claimed that as a Christian she is incapable of lying. Doc has taken up with peg and seems to be supporting her just to be spiteful toward RnMom. Given their infallibility, I suspect that doc and peg have a lot in common.

There's a big difference between doc and Uriel.
141 posted on 09/22/2001 5:58:30 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: Dahlseide
You cannot deflect the issue to sarcasm. Sarcasm is NOT the issue. Your filthy statement (#63) under the rubric of sarcasm is the issue.

But it is fine for your leader to call a Christian woman a liar ,a heretic and a whore huh?

That was an exchange between woody and me..there is a line from Shakespeare that fits well hwere

"me thinks though doest protest too much"

142 posted on 09/22/2001 8:28:33 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: George W. Bush,White Mountain
Doc has taken up with peg and seems to be supporting her just to be spiteful toward RnMom. Given their infallibility, I suspect that doc and peg have a lot in common.

Is there room for two gods in the same space...UMMMMMMMm

143 posted on 09/22/2001 8:38:41 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: White Mountain
Learn to honor womanhood.

This must be some kind of a sick mormon joke. First, multiple wives, and now, multiple wives through proxy. You need to repent of this or be prepared to suffer why you were more interested in your glory than His Glory.

144 posted on 09/22/2001 9:01:59 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: White Mountain cc: Dahlseide the_doc, Uriel1975
This is their modus operandi. Attack. Attack. Attack. Look for pretexts to attack. Try to get the other guy angry, so when they counterattack (even couched in sarcasm), profess to be deeply wounded, and make endless demands for apologies, which is another kind of attack.

Do you even know what you are talking about? FYI, I was the object of her "love" this time.

145 posted on 09/22/2001 9:12:07 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: CCWoody, White Mountain cc: Dahlseide the_doc, Uriel1975
To: White Mountain cc: Dahlseide the_doc, Uriel1975 This is their modus operandi. Attack. Attack. Attack. Look for pretexts to attack. Try to get the other guy angry, so when they counterattack (even couched in sarcasm), profess to be deeply wounded, and make endless demands for apologies, which is another kind of attack. Do you even know what you are talking about? FYI, I was the object of her "love" this time.

Let us review some of the words that have been sent my way,in just this one thread..seeing you are now crying foul first Woody,let us look at your words of ridicule aimed at me,and to mock my church and in your ignorance alot of very good Christians

. Why would a "sinless" person need to be on their knees before God in such a repentant broken hearted manner seeking to turn away from the wicked ways in which he walks?

I hope that was just a sarcastic question..because if it wasnt it proves you have not read one post regarding this from,don,or me,You did that to discredit and slander the Wesleyans and you know it in your heart..you could have asked in a civilized way,but YOU chose to walk in your masters steps

So I gave back to you the same sarcastic answer that would suggest that I like you had not learned any thing about Calvinism on these threads

But then as WM points out all the cry babies come out.It is ok to defame Wesley, and non Calvinists...but should one say something that has an edged to it..it is suddenly proof that I am "unloving"

Well lets look at some of what was said..

From doc"Maybe some of the other folks will continue giving you doctrinal pearls, but if you are going to behave like a swine, I won't. You deserve only a rebuke as a factious crank--i.e., a lying heretic--not a person who is interested in understanding sound doctrine.

This one from doc is of special note

The very first casualty of Wesley's theological stupidity was the Truth. And that is why so many lovey-dovey Wesleyans are so contemptuous of sound doctrine. It is also why you lovey-dovey Wesleyans are so malevolent when someone confronts you for your doctrinal nonsense. You show your true colors.>

I especially like that Wesleyans are MALEVONANT...while all the slander,namecalling and spiritual threats are acceptable because you all have the "truth "right

Let us go on

You may fool yourself and a few naive lurkers, but you certainly don't fool me by your religiosity. There is a foul spirit in your soul. It is the very reason why you are completely unteachable. It is the reason why you cannot receive the Truth

The love of Christ shed abroad ..by the followers of Calvin

And yet one more 'love note for PUBLIC consumption

Sometimes you dismiss the rebuke with a smarmy joke or inane flattery. This is part of your self-deception. You think you love the Lord, and your "lovely" spirit is part of the charade of your Truth-despising spirit. And the whole mess is sealed by your false doctrine of sanctification. You are actually an unholy mess, it seems to me. No, lady, you are not teachable yet. You are not even close.

And from one more calvinist,Dahlseide You cannot deflect the issue to sarcasm. Sarcasm is NOT the issue. Your filthy statement (#63) under the rubric of sarcasm is the issue.

And all of this only represents the on forum discussion..

Woody perhaps it fits your defination of Christian not to address the doctrine..but to instead attact the character,salvation and spirit of a person with calls of liar and whore (done off the forum this time).

You intentially worded that post to mock not to learn..you were looking for allies to mock the Weselyans..it was not an honest question....I answered your dishonest question with a dishonest answer to make a point..

Is this "love" ahhhh you sound like you have learned the hateful rethortic well...but ask doc...your mentor he will tell you truth is love..and on this we agree..I guess it just depends on who's truth..

The funny thing of all this is.......well never mind it might spoil the group game of get the "WOMAN"....how close you were...how close you were

146 posted on 09/22/2001 10:38:31 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: George W. Bush
To the only Calvinist that offered any kind of a Christian response..a bump to #146
147 posted on 09/22/2001 10:40:27 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Whatever Happened To Repentance?

If you join the Jewish religion, you could have a whole 10 days dedicated to repentance and atonement. We are in Rosh Hashana right now. Still time to join before the blowing of the Shofar on Yom Kippur! :o)

148 posted on 09/22/2001 10:44:12 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Lazamataz
Have a blessed New Year..and may God keep Israel!
149 posted on 09/22/2001 10:46:27 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: RnMomof7
Have a blessed New Year..and may God keep Israel!

Thanks. :o)

(Thought I had converted ya for a second there) :o)

150 posted on 09/22/2001 10:48:44 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: Lazamataz
If you join the Jewish religion, you could have a whole 10 days dedicated to repentance and atonement. We are in Rosh Hashana right now. Still time to join before the blowing of the Shofar on Yom Kippur! :o) We Christians would urge you to accept Christ as your saviour at any time of the year.

Our Messiah offers immediate and perfect atonement but, it seems, we may expect a lifetime of repentance.

Come back any time.
151 posted on 09/22/2001 11:16:52 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: CCWoody
This must be some kind of a sick mormon joke. First, multiple wives, and now, multiple wives through proxy. You need to repent of this or be prepared to suffer why you were more interested in your glory than His Glory. There has never been any indication that WM is a member of the dissident fundamentalist Mormon groups who practice polygamy. They have all been expelled from LDS and their obvious adherents excommicated. This suggestion is hardly fair. In his advocacy of for the Saints church, White Mountain only refers to modern LDS materials. The real polygamists reject those materials.

We may disagree with WM's Book of Mormon but you have no right to accuse him of polygamy without proof.
152 posted on 09/22/2001 11:24:07 AM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush
We Christians would urge you to accept Christ as your saviour at any time of the year. Our Messiah offers immediate and perfect atonement but, it seems, we may expect a lifetime of repentance. Come back any time.

Feh. You Christians go to confessional every week, while we get our atonement all in one day.

It figures: Christians even pay retail for sins, whereas we Jews always find the good bargain! ;^)

153 posted on 09/22/2001 11:29:37 AM PDT by Lazamataz
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To: All, new thread, but the name is the same
I have requested a change, but we may want to wait to post until the thread is fixed or yanked!

Thread II

154 posted on 09/22/2001 11:35:02 AM PDT by CCWoody
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To: Lazamataz
Feh. You Christians go to confessional every week, while we get our atonement all in one day. It figures: Christians even pay retail for sins, whereas we Jews always find the good bargain! ;^) You've confused us with the Romanists, the so-called Roman Catholics.

We are Protestants and Baptists here. We confess our sins directly to God and are forgiven directly by God at any time.

A simplicity undreamt of by Jews or Romanists. I'll just point out that it is available to all who will come. I'm afraid I'm too sincere to add a witty riposte.
155 posted on 09/22/2001 12:17:23 PM PDT by George W. Bush
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To: George W. Bush cc: Uriel1975
Your #141: Uriel does not call names and hurl damnation. When he misstates the position of someone else, he apologizes graciously. Uriel does not sneak around in FRmail and bash people and play games with "misaddressed" FRmail. Uriel doesn't call a woman a lying heretic whore ever. Uriel does not support the views of a woman who has now claimed that as a Christian she is incapable of lying. Doc has taken up with peg and seems to be supporting her just to be spiteful toward RnMom. Given their infallibility, I suspect that doc and peg have a lot in common. There's a big difference between doc and Uriel.

I completely agree, 100%. My point was that it is doc and Uriel this time around who are going after RnMom and will, I expect, be demanding apologies for many threads to come. Uriel has a very different attack style from that of doc, but they are both very energetic in that regard.

Nevertheless, may God bless them both, and their families, and you and yours as well!

156 posted on 09/22/2001 11:59:50 PM PDT by White Mountain (God bless America!)
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To: RnMomof7
But it is fine for your leader to call a Christian woman a liar, a heretic and a whore huh?

Guess it is time for me to respond in order that my complaint be clear - the complaint wherein I would attempt to reprove any Christian who made that statement that you made in (so long ago - was it #63) an exchange with ???. I care not a whit whether the words you used offended the one addressed - this is, to an old Iowa farm boy, a "party line", I heard.

If you were called a liar, like in nearly always, vs specific e-utterances, I would agree that you are not a liar always. Same for heretic where I assume at this late date that the_doc referred to one or more heretical statements vs heretic in toto. Regarding whore, it is a fact that you were never called a whore - there is a world of difference between Babylon and round-heels. In truth of course Babylon is infinitely worse than round-heels, I think, so the accusation was very grave, not to be taken likely - but also not to be dismissed as simply whore in the context that you stated.. Whore, with out a modifier, means round-heels, not Babylon. the_doc did not mean round-heels.

A Christian can/may make a heretical statement, and can/may also make a statement, one or more, that is a lie. The fundamental issue is really doctrine, not life-style, since those who take this seriously are more often than not guided by doctrine. Lack of wanting to sin, or not sinning intentionally, or some such statement, flies in the face of Holy Scripture. We have, do, and will - our sins are not imaginary they are real. You may think what I have just said is a lie, is heretical. I will disagree in very strong terms as you of course may with me.

I find it ironic that an LDS who hasn't a clue of the essentials of the Bible should attempt to butter-up to GWB and you and ???. I'd rather have these discussions in private than on a party line but the die has been cast and accusations have been made by others referring to "behind ones back". So this is out in the open should any care to retort.

As for my leader, I'll assume you meant that as sarcasm. I have no problem with sarcasm; I like and use it myself (#63 was vicious, yes filthy, and if meant as sarcasm, was not Christian)

157 posted on 10/09/2001 10:15:48 PM PDT by Dahlseide
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To: Dahlseide
I am not going bact there
158 posted on 10/10/2001 6:55:39 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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