Posted on 09/19/2001 9:16:32 AM PDT by Doug Loss
A few days ago I posted an article from the New Zealand Press in which the NZ Prime Minister Helen Clark was quoted as saying NZ was withdrawing from the ANZUS pact and wouldn't support the US in its time of need. This engendered quite a response, mainly from outraged Americans.
However, I've also heard from Kiwis who said that the newspaper report wasn't accurate, the PM doesn't speak for them, and that the NZ people heartily support the US. Most of the Kiwis were polite in their messages :-), too.
Now that things have cooled down a bit I'd like to thank everyone from NZ who replied for their thoughts. We welcome your support, both moral and material. However, I hope you can soon put your house in order. Your PM is an international embarrassment to you.
Proof is in the pudding... America welcomes over 1 million immigrants a year into this country from every corner of the planet. America has the most diverse cultures and races of people living together in piece and freedom than any other place on the planet. The victims in the WTC attack were from at least 45 different countries alone. No other country allows the poor from so many places to come live among us as equals. That is a simple fact. That is hardly xenophobic behavior.
Some pesky details... The first blacks to be elected to the US congress were in the 1870's. Blacks had the right to vote even then. Not 1973 as you said. Not even close…
The origional topic appears to have been a misunderstanding.
We certainly thank you for your pledges of political, inteligence and military support. As the scope of this long, hard war against terrorism expands beyond it's initial stages, you will almost certainly be asked for help. You see, this isn't a war against one country, but a war against terrorism itself - wherever it might try to form a base. Terrorists are mobile; they will go wherever they think they will be safe. The world must persue them and assure that there is no safe place. That's why this war is going to involve all the countries of the world that beleive in freedom and have the backbone to fight for it. Your expertise in jungle fighting will be a welcome asset in the jungles of the south Philipines and thoughout southeast asia.
As for the dockworkers strike; there are always those people who try to use a crisis for the advancement of their own agendas. Whether it's dockworkers striking in WW2 or the racists who killed an Indian businessman in Texas last week, there will always be sub-humans. It says nothing except that you are human.
As for your immegration policies; I happen to have studied the demographics of Polynesia. Most of Polynesia is desperately poor. Like the US having to have immegration quotas from Mexico to avoid being overwhelmed by migrants seeking a better life, NZ has to do the same thing with regard to Polynesia. No doubt, you regret the neccessity as much as we, but you do what you have to do to survive. I can't fault you for that. My understanding of NZ history with regard to the Maoris is basically that NZ has done a better job of integrating natives and colonists equitably than most other countries. Not perfect, mind you! Not even close. But, considering the dismal record of treatment the majority of indigenous peoples have received, NZ ranks above average.
As for the treaty; the facts are unpleasant, but unambiguous: You refused to honor your obligations under the treaty. That means you were not expelled, you chose to withdraw. You declared to the world,"We do not care enough about the freedom of any other country enough to risk our lives and our homes for them." That is what a "nuclear free" policy means. It means you were willing to say, "If you conquer Europe, or Korea, or Japan, we won't stop you. In return we ask that you not hurt us." You may not like it being stated so bluntly, but it is a fact: all the other countries of the alliance put themselves in harms way in mutual defense of each other's freedoms. NZ refused to do that.
I actually remember when it happened. I was saddened but not surprised. Saddened because an act of such selfish cowardice seemed at odds with NZ's past history. But unsurprised as I knew what kind of propaganda had been dumped on you. Remember this was...what....1986 or so? The late Reagan years. The press had spent the past six years telling everyone that "Ronnie Ray-Gun" was gonna destroy the world in a blaze of nuclear fire! You better run! You better hide! Even cities and counties in the US were declaring themselves "nuclear free" in the media induced frenzy and stupidity. And our media, liberal as it was, was positively right-wing compared to the European media - which is very much like your own (a fact which may explain the recent "misinterpetation" of the PMs words? Wishful thinking?) No doubt, there was a fair amount of internal politics involved as well. I don't pretend to keep up on the specifics of NZ politics, but I do recall that socialist parties were very prominent in most parlimentary democracies at that time. I imagine they did a very good job of making a betrayal of the free world seem a noble and proud act, didn't they? They one thing socialists are good at is straining at gnats and swallowing camels. My favorite is the greed thing: His greed is bad because he wants to keep what he earns, but your greed is good because you want to take what he has. Why? Because he's GREEDY! Gotta love doublethink.
But I digress. The point is; you expelled yourselves from the alliance. Don't, however, take this as a condemnation. The history of New Zealanders show they are basically a brave and level headed people. One mistake doesn't define a whole people. We have all made mistakes; sometimes from fear or greed, and sometimes just out of ignorance or arrogance. It's the nature of a state composed of humans that it will be prone to human error on occassion. I have faith that NZ will realize that that policy was a mistake and change it...probably before very long. I think a lot of illusions are going to be shattered before long and a lot of changes in attitudes are gonna take place throughout the world. The illusion that NZ was an island safe behind it's barrier of passivism and non-involvement was badly bruised already by the troubles spreading through Indonesia and the civil war and terrorism in the Philipines. Suddenly wars weren't something you sent people off to fight somewhere else, suddenly they were on the doorstep... and NZ wasn't helping someone else, she was carrying the ball herself! That wasn't what the passifists promised was it? And, of course, now that you've gotten sucked in and starting making enemies, you've begun the process of making yourselves a target for terrorism too. The terrorists would call you "occupiers" for being in "their" country. "Exploiters" because you are obvously wealthier than they are. And "repressors" because you stop them from shooting the people they want to shoot. Do you seriously doubt that that is coming? Remeber operation "feed the people"?
I suspect NZ brief flirtation with isolationism and passifism is just about over. And good riddence. It never really fit their character anyway. In this war you can't "opt out of the nuclear madness". What are you gonna do, declare yourself a terrorism free zone? Refuse to let US planes land? Opt out of the terrorism madness? See how silly it sounds?
The whole world just changed. Welcome back to the firing line. We missed you.
You ought to read post # 128 on this thread... I real winner...
I am not going to get into the whole NZ Nuclear Free debate, but would just like to say that NZ never stepped off the firing line by saying we didn't want Nukes in our country. After all it is our country and isn't it our right to make that decision whether it is right or wrong? And who decides it is right or wrong, the USA?
No matter what our stance was on the Nuclear issue, and I really don't think it made that much difference apart the US government being pissed that we didn't toe the line, we have always, and will continue to do our part no matter.
On an amusing note: Have you noticed the perspective shift?
When the US decides to act unilaterally against the wishes of it allies, it's "arrogant". When you do it, it's "courageous". Hehe. I love watching how perspectives change as you move around the world. Europeans call Americans "crude, vulgar, and arrogant". While we find their assumption of automatic (and as far as anyone can tell - completely unfounded) superiority and condecension, enfuriatingly rude and arrogant.
But...You know what? Only from a distance.
When Europeans visit over here they almost always go back talking about how friendly, open, and generous their American friends were. And when Americans visit Europe (assuming they get outside Paris) they are universally impressed by the genuine warmth, hospitality, and friendliness, of all the people they meet.
I love perspective.
As soon as the Kiwis have a new election and Labour is tossed out again, NZ will have a government again that truly represents the people.
right now, you are either a friend of the US, or an enemy of the US. Make up your mind and accept the consequences of your choice.
I was glad it was pulled...
That's why I had to confine my ruminations to the generally vague. I do know that NZ was more socialist than the US. Your descriptions of the actions of the government confirm it as they describe a country trying to emerge from socialism. I do know that such actions are rarely taken lightly, and there is always a large segment of the population that resists - that is true of any people, anywhere. That means that you must still have had plenty of socialists around (even if they had changed their names) and I will bet flaming rights that they were vocal supporters of the "Nuclear Free" movement. Am I wrong?
As for your definition of courage; I'm afraid we'll just have to agree to disagree. I, quite frankly, don't even understand your definition of courage. Which means you probably don't understand mine either. We may as well be speaking different languages. And I really don't know what to do about it beyond wishing you a good day. Adios!
While my opinions on the wisdom of NZ nuclear free policy is (I trust) quite clear; I remind you that that is the past. As a famous General said, "Mistakes in war can only be corrected in the next war." This IS the next war.
And in this war NZ has pledged to stand with Autralia, and Korea, and Japan, and US - as well as all the civilized world - against the dealers of murder and fear. That seems like a pretty clear choice to me.
They're right..........we know.........and you should damned well know, too. Cut 'em some serious slack here, or else think of what it would be like if the rest of the world judged us by the actions of The First Sociopath that our country kept in office for eight fu**ing years!!
You are indeed welcome to your opinion and we will just have to agree to disagree.
Your point re perspective change is an interesting one, in 1985 when in an act of state sponsored terroism a ship, the Rainbow Warrior, was blown up in Auckland Harbour with 12 innocent people on board, one of whom died. Maybe not as horific as the recent events in New York and Washington, but horrific to the people of NZ and a terroist strike.
The NZ Police caught 2 of the terroists, who turned out to be in the French Security Forces and they eventually pleaded guilty and were sentenced to jail.
What was the reaction of the world and in particular our strong allies with whom our country men had fought and died beside in countless wars? Not to mention France who they had died trying to free in two world wars!
France? Committed the act, refused to hand over 4 others involved.
The USA & UK? (And remember ANZUS was still operating). Put pressure on the NZ government to hand over the terroists back to France!
Eventually bowing to pressure and adhering to a decision of the world court NZ handed over the two terroists, who were supposed to spend the rest of there jail term in a French prison, some pitiful compensation was paid at the time. The two terroists went to a French resort in the Pacific for a year or so and then were returned to France to receive a heroes welcome and medals.
So before anymore of you talk about NZ having to stand up to our obligations, which we always have and always will do think about whether your country has always lived up to yours. Where was the global fight against terroism in 1985? Has perspective changed?
Actually no! The fact the economy grew during that period was due to the policies enacted by Reagan. What could Klinton have done to spark a growth in 92 when he was elected 11/7/92? By your own statement you used 92 as a focal point. Anyone with common sense knows that you can not stimulate an economy overnight.
So, if you want to credit klinton, please tell me exactly what were Klinton's accomplishments? With 8 years to do it, what did klinton do to help social security? Nothing! In fact, the SOB actually raised the taxes back in 94 while he still had the majority of the house and senate.
What did your boy do to help save medicare? Again, nothing!
What did your boy do to improve the education in this country over the past 8 years? Again, nothing! Merely lies, lies and more lies from the socialist.
Now to address your ludricrist statement of above, just what did your idol do to promote this economy? Again, absolutely nothing!
Furthermore Einstein, as of 11/7/2000, after 8 years of lies and denials by the most corrupt administration in the history of the United States, most of America who had their savings in 401-K's and the stock market had lost approximately 30% of their life savings! So who are you going to point the blame on that one?
You're on the wrong forum to spout your socialist lies. We have seen and heard it all over here.
Considering you have only been around since September 18, you already have proven to everyone here beyond the shadow of a doubt that you are a stupid jackass!! Stick around stupid, we are going to have fun with you......
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