New Zealand's support of the US

me | September 19, 2001 | Doug Loss

[Doug Loss]

A few days ago I posted an article from the New Zealand Press in which the NZ Prime Minister Helen Clark was quoted as saying NZ was withdrawing from the ANZUS pact and wouldn't support the US in its time of need. This engendered quite a response, mainly from outraged Americans.

However, I've also heard from Kiwis who said that the newspaper report wasn't accurate, the PM doesn't speak for them, and that the NZ people heartily support the US. Most of the Kiwis were polite in their messages :-), too.

Now that things have cooled down a bit I'd like to thank everyone from NZ who replied for their thoughts. We welcome your support, both moral and material. However, I hope you can soon put your house in order. Your PM is an international embarrassment to you.

[N Evans]

"Reply to: Question for you. How would you feel if the US took the same political positions as your country? For example banning all American nuclear weapons and ships here and abroad. What if Australia did the same? Would you feel safer if America and Australia had no nuclear weapons whatsoever? Do you think China and others would stop producing them? Do you think they would "never" use them?

If you answer that you wouldn't feel safer, then why do you expect others to provide a stable world for you to enjoy cost free? Freedom has a cost associated with it. To allow others to provide an umbrella of security is selfish and ultimately self-destructive. Tyrants always come along though out history and exploit/conquer the weak. They only understand force. That force is what keeps us all safe".

Australia doesn't have nuclear weapons, but goes along with the US' "neither confirm nor deny" policy on visiting ships etc.

I think only a madman would ever use nuclear weapons. I understand the "mutually-assured destruction" rationale that keeps them in the inventory, but they are not needed in the South Pacific, thanks all the same.

I resent your inference that we expect others to provide a stable world cost-free. We are a foundation signatory of the UN Charter, and (unlike the US) pay our dues. We also have contributed significantly to peace keeping operations as a UN member, and stood alongside the US in ALL of its wars.

[kiwiexpat]

You obviously know nothing about the New Zealand economy. New Zealand at one time - before 1984 - had the most regulated capitalist economy in the world. Today, it has one of the least regulated; Newt Gingrich's economic policy contained in the Contract for America is based on New Zealand's economic reforms, which were begun by the Third Labor Government (1884-1990). Helen Clark is no communist. While she has moderated the worst excesses of the free market economy, her government is also actively pursuing a free market agreement with the United States, among other countries. In terms of industry and agriculture protection and support, New Zealand has has a much freer market than the United States. For example, farmers in New Zealand receive no price subsidies from the government; we have the most free agricultural industry in the industrialized world. For the last thirty years, New Zealand has experienced many talented people leaving the country. But it has nothing to do with "leftist" policies. The economic policies in New Zealand for the last twenty years have been neo-conversative.

[DB]

Then apparently you think there are no "madmen" in the world.

After all only a madman would fly civil airplanes into buildings and kill 5,000+ people at a time. But that would never happen would it.

If you think the UN keeps the piece and the US doesn't provide massive resources to the UN then who is sticking their head in the sand?

[DB]

You make many of the same arguments the British made when Hitler invaded Poland. He's not after us… He's only settling old scores with those in the east…

After WWI many said it could never happen again… We don't need an army…

Does this all sound familiar to you?

It should.

[kiwiexpat]

Damian5: You may know history, but you're selective in its use. During World War II, in the USA the coal miners and steel workers went on strike, although strikes were illegal. Therefore, using your fatuous criteria, the US must be a communist state. Also, you failed to mention the following history: New Zealand declared war against Nazi Germany before the UK did. New Zealand was in WWII two years before the US was. New Zealand lost a great percentage of its soldiers than any other Allied country did in WWII, with the exception of the Soviet Union. Rommel judged New Zealand's Maori soldiers to be the most effective soliders in the world. New Zealand armed forces served with Americans in Korea, Vietnam, and the Gulf. New Zealand soldiers trained American soldiers in jungle warfare during Vietnam. If you can't get your facts straight, go back to your regular activity of masturbating quietly in a corner somewhere.

[rockfish59]

i am shocked that LLAN-DEUSSANT (12th gen NZer) hasn't piped in with his anti-american spiel!!! BAAAAaaaaaaaaa......

[muzza29]

Who is moving to attack a country without much of a defence as Hitler did when invading Poland? mmm let me think? Perhaps we should think before we speak

[NativeKiwi]

No, you've got it wrong. Americans have always been xenophobes. The whole world knows that! Yes, it is a pity that the first thread was taken down. It really brought out that xenophobic nature that we have all come to expect from Americans (US Americans!). All this patriotic drivel about applying sanctions, getting no thanks for saving us during WW2, not buying our wine, refraining from eating kiwi fruit, sheep meat. Those comments were published throughout every major newspaper in New Zealand. Oh, and boy, we were all soooo scared.... I mean, would anyone really take the comments of a few right winged, southern red necks seriously? Let me guess, you're all called George..... While most of the world can sympathise with the US regarding the events of the last week, most of the worlds population do NOT like Americans and judging by the comments made on this site regarding NZ, it's easy to see why. You kid yourselves if you think otherwise. While most of the world appear to be supporting your fight against terrorism, your only real ally is Britain. And contrary to what you would like to believe, the world does NOT need the USA. Certainly NZ will not need the USA and nor will Australia as the balance of economic power shifts back to the civilised world; namely Europe. Pretty soon the US will be a military giant with nowhere to fire it's guns. A wilderness full of southern bumpkins living in a time warp. Here's a few facts; The USA was not a truly democratic nation until 1973 when 'all' Black Americans were allowed to vote Every country you have attacked since the 2ndWW has been a third world nation You have the second highest rate of homicide in the world - and you are supposedly a civilised nation (lol) You are the only so called civilised nation in the world that still executes people! You are the most hated nation in the world, not because you advocate freedom but because you advocate a 'brand' of freedom nobody wants. In conclusion, you have a president with an IQ of 90 and probably with severe frontal cortex damage due to alcoholism. GOD BLESS AMERICA because, god knows it needs it......

[muzza29]

and before you all jump down my throat- yes I am aware that there is provocation for this but thought I would use the same kinda logic as DB seems to

[seanheron]

Hey zcat, after a quick bit of research on the internet, I discovered that the U.S economy grew by 36% between 1992 - 2000 (compared to 19% for Europe), which is, if I am not mistaken, about the same time that crazy leftist Bill Clinton was in office. Let me guess your reply: If a nice conservative had been in power, the economy would have grown by 50%, right?

[New Zealander]

Yeah - and speaking of humour, how about that Big Bunyip fullah - years in the states, and he's still got a bit of the spirit of ANZAC - and a bloody classic sense of humour!

[Kiwi and Proud]

I read somewhere that the U.S. is way behind in arrears in payments to the UN ... or is that false reporting coming out of the U.S. ... no that could not possibly happen in the U.S. of course ...

[gillian_1981]

Shouldn't we try to unite for a common cause? Isn't this dissonance only creating rifts, mindsets and paradigms for all involved?

I've been pretty annoyed at some the comments made (both by NZ and American comments), but I've also learnt a lot also. How can any of us pass judgement on another country when we don't even know the real situation in our own country? I don't feel I can.

Many differing opinions colour things differently, and pointedly trying to tell someone in another culture that how they do something is wrong, is bound to get them on the defensive. Everybody makes mistake, every country makes mistakes. I don't feel we can judge a whole population by small samples like what has been done. Those in power do not represent the feelings of the majority all the time.

Today I donated money today to the NZ Police who are collecting for the NY Police. Our NZ Firefighters are collecting for the NY Firefighters. My friends at uni were collective in their shock, my workmates sat stunned in front of the tv at work. I wandered around Aotea Square after the memorial service and felt so sad looking at the candle wax littering the ground from people who came from all over to pray, remember and mourn with the world.

I've tried to sit out of this discussion, but I feel we should try to be a little more understanding. The American's will be upset at any country who doesn't appear to be wholehearted in their support as us NZers would be if it happened in our country. But NZers are doing all they possibly can, as I'm sure America would be doing if our positions were reversed.

I have my opinions which would inflame the situation further I'm sure, but I am refraining because I'm scared enough of what's come out of this - the views, the values, the hatred, and the misunderstanding. This may have brought the world closer, but it seems to have the potential to divide individuals.

Have you ever played the game Chinese Whispers where you pass a sentence around a group, by whispering in each others ears. Do you remember how you'd laugh at how distorted the end result was? Well cultures, media, perceptions and attitudes have the same distorting effect - it's up to you whether we take offense, or sit back, think laterally and learn.

United we stand, divided we fall (how cliche!) :)

God bless.

[muzza29]

nice to see that intelligent debate is alive and well in the United States. By the way you have proven once again that you arent that good with actual facts. Its 70 million sheep - a well publicised fact.. perhaps you got this fact from your cereal box book'o'facts along with all your other farcical ones.

[Verbatim]

16 million sheep? Yet another fact you have got wrong. I think whoever printed those books you are getting your facts from must have been the same company that produced history text books in Japan.

[New Zealander]

Damian5

Oh - ofcourse! The old, "I don't want to deal with facts,

ergo: I'm going to claim you have sexual relations with sheep!"

But then I can't claim credit for the basis of those lines above - afterall, they are based on one of your own posts...

If you don't have anything constructive left to say, then bugger off.

[Mel A]

Really, damian5 - you are actually really funny? Methinks you are being obnoxious and trying to appear uneducated simply to wind us up. You have provided my friends and I with many a laugh as we have speculated whether you actually mean what you say, or whether you are just having a bit of fun. We have come to the conclusion that noone could really be as backward as you and be able to use a computer - so congratulations!! You had a fair few of us sucked in!

[DB]

The congress has withheld payment to the UN for basic UN operation for some time now. It has been withheld trying to get the UN to reform how it spends the money (huge bureaucratic wastes). The US still sends large amounts of resources to the UN in spite of the dispute.

[DB]

Mel A, what do you think of Post # 128.

We (USA) don't have a monopoly on the nuts of the world...