Posted on 09/18/2001 5:13:39 PM PDT by Dan from Michigan
Edited on 04/22/2004 12:31:07 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]
This has all been thoroughly documented from the Bible and where the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob has given "the land" to Israel forever.
You've been provided with all that before, from many other threads. It's documented repeatedly throughout the Bible (Old Testament and New Testament).
In fact, God makes the existence of Israel the proof of His existence -- to the point where one can say that if Israel ceases to exist and does not become established as a nation then the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is not the one true God of the universe. He makes this to be a "challenge of His name".
And that's why all these things will come true.
As far as the "human mechanisms" that brought about the sequence of events in which Israel was re-established as a nation (in the "world of nations"), that's fairly well documented, too. It goes back many decades and actually a couple of centuries. No use rehashing that either.
The main point is God will establish Israel, and give it the "promised land" and maintain His integrity and name -- through that establishment of Israel in the world and the coming Kingdom of God on this earth, with the arrival of His Son, Jesus Christ and the setting up of His Kingdom in Jerusalem in the land of Israel for the 1,000 year reign (that we see in Revelation, and in other parts of the Old Testament).
This is what you will soon see. These events are bringing us quickly to this point.
I guess that would be one way to separate them from the innocent!
Look, I know you bible-thumpers like to make up all kinds of stuff based on excerpts from the Bible, and use it to somehow "prove" that the state of Israel exists for some glorious purpose in God.
But the fact is you leave out the tons and tons of biblical passages that give conditions for Israel being "God's people."
And strangely, you don't mention the fact that the Jews were only PART of Israel, not even the major part at that. I repeat: Israel is a secular nation, a political construct. It just happens, coincidentally, to bear the name of an ancient homeland of the descendents of Jacob, who was called Israel.
Israel, the modern state, is a socialist, secular nation. Only the Jewish religion is allowed official recognition there. If you are a Christian you may not go there to proselytize or preach your faith. It is forbidden by law.
So much for your silly pipe-dreams.
It's not something that is "made up". A person can't escape it, all throughout the Bible. It's so "ingrained" in what God says that if you remove that idea (about Israel) you remove the whole idea of God and what He will do in this world. He's chosen to "make Himself known" totally and exclusively through Israel -- and He says so.
But the fact is you leave out the tons and tons of biblical passages that give conditions for Israel being "God's people."
The "conditions" which are given are not for Israel being "God's people" (or chosen nation and/or the way that God "communicates" with the world and the nation which He chose to bring His Son). Israel being the chosen people remains unchanged as the Bible says. God repeatedly says that He'll never cast them away. He says repeatedly that He will bring about all that He has said -- for "His name's sake".
Those "conditions" were given for their success or punishment -- if they did not follow His will. And they did not. Thus they have suffered under those "conditions" that God has set for them -- but not to their destruction and not to the exclusion of what He has promised. God says in the end, He will bring Israel back to the land and He will not forsake them. He will prove His name to the world through what He does with Israel. That's so well established in the Bible that one has to throw out the Bible to not see that.
And strangely, you don't mention the fact that the Jews were only PART of Israel, not even the major part at that. I repeat: Israel is a secular nation, a political construct. It just happens, coincidentally, to bear the name of an ancient homeland of the descendents of Jacob, who was called Israel.
The current state of Israel is not the final state of Israel. It's in the continuing process of God bringing about what He has said He will accomplish. It's been happening from the last century and will continue -- just as the Bible says.
God has already told us (before it ever happened) that Israel would exist again -- and in its own land. It has happened exactly as God said it would. Now, that it's happened -- you say that it doesn't mean anything and that it is nothing but a political construct. While you say that, there exists the "workings of God" in that land which will bring about the total fulfillment of what God has said. And when He has brought it all about -- then the world will have no choice but to say that God has accomplished it.
Israel, the modern state, is a socialist, secular nation. Only the Jewish religion is allowed official recognition there. If you are a Christian you may not go there to proselytize or preach your faith. It is forbidden by law.
You may not know that there are the Messianic Jews, who are in the land and who believe in Jesus as the Messiah. Of course, this is part of what the Bible already tells us, that Israel will be "brought back" in "unbelief" and will be brought to "belief" in the Messiah at the end. The Apostle Paul makes that clear for the Christians to not be "proud" and think they are better than them -- and that they are "grafted" onto the "root" of Israel. And we will see all of Israel brought to the full faith in the Messiah (in God's good time, as He's bringing about right now).
According to the U.S. Department of State, this is untrue:
http://www.state.gov/www/global/human_rights/irf/irf_rpt/1999/irf_israel99.html
Missionaries are allowed to proselytize, although the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints voluntarily refrains from proselytizing under an agreement with the Government. A 1977 antiproselytizing law prohibits anyone from offering or receiving material benefits as an inducement to conversion; there have been no reports of its enforcement. Bills that would have further restricted proselytizing were introduced and passed their preliminary readings in 1997 and 1998 with the support of some government ministers; however, no further action was taken before the dissolution of the Knesset following the May 1999 elections. They are not expected to be enacted if reintroduced in the Knesset. Christian and other evangelical groups asserted that the draft bills were discriminatory and served to intimidate Christian groups.
I assume your beef is with the LDS agreement. But, that is a voluntary agreement, according to our government.
Israel has its problems, but religious freedom is generally not one of them. Certainly, it is nowhere near the problems that it is in most Islamic-majority countries.
You have it backwards. The Hindus kill Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, and other minorities. The Indian government has killed over 75,000 Muslims in Kashmir since 1988, over 250,000 Sikhs since 1984, over 200,000 Christians in Nagaland since 1947, and tens of thousands of Dalit "untouchables," Tamils, Assamese, Manipuris, and others.
Democracies don't commit genocide.
Criticising the extremism of Jihadist regimes is not racist, IMO.
Lest you be accused of "bashing" Hindus, above.
And, before you point to #14, the people trying to have a rational discussion can't be responsible for anything and everything that gets littered onto a thread.
Hindus kill Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, and other minorities. The Indian government has killed over 75,000 Muslims in Kashmir since 1988, over 250,000 Sikhs since 1984, over 200,000 Christians in Nagaland since 1947, and tens of thousands of Dalit "untouchables," Tamils, Assamese, Manipuris, and others. I am not by any means denying what you said. I know that at least Christians are being persecuted in India. I talked to a missionary who has spent the last forty years in India, and he said that things are only getting worse for Christians yet the Gospel is still spreading. Still anything that is not general knowledge should have a source.
Can someone answer this question:
In the commentary of my KJV - Scofield study Bible, It says that Islam presents the biggest challenge to Christians because Islam is most like Christianity.
That statement both surprises and confuses me. I would have thought that Christianity was most closely linked to Judaism - the antithesis of Islam.
Wasn't it Abram's effort to fulfill God's promise in his own way the start of the Arab-Israeli conflict? This being God's promise that the descendents of Ishmael would be against the descendents of Isaac.
Thanks for any response.
Well, in answer to your question, it depends on what is meant by that Scoffield Commentary. I really don't know. I might venture a "guess" (by trying to get into their "mindset" for saying that) -- but it would just be a guess by me.
I would start by asking myself -- what is most similar with Christianity (in somewhat analytical terms)? My first thought on that basis -- is with the IDEA OF EXCLUSIVITY.
The Bible makes clear that there is no other salvation outside of Jesus Christ. I shouldn't have to go into verse references here, because that's fairly well documented. In other words, the Bible makes clear that God has provided only one way to salvation, in that no other way will work. All others will fail. So, Christianity is "exclusive" of any other "religion" -- in that all others are called false and will result in being "lost" in the lake of fire.
Now, it appears that Islam makes the same "exclusive" types of statements for itself. So, they has "cast themselves" in direct opposition to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (not simply "another way" like a lot of other false religions say). Islam says to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, "You are the false god here; Allah is the true god."
This is being said while the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is saying that He will prove Himself and preserve His name through what He has done through Israel. He has said that there are no other gods before Him, that He is the one and only and true God of the universe and of all of creation.
Thus, exclusivity would be one of the characteristics.
Perhaps another characteristic is that both (from the "people of the book" [Islam's phrase for Jews and Christians]) Islam and Jews/Christians, claim Abraham as their "father".
However, Islam does not have the God of "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" -- but rather -- they claim a "god" from Abraham, which was not Abraham's God, but really a "false god" stemming from the "line of the Messiah" not being through Ishmael but through Isaac and Jacob. That false god is none other than who the Scriptures identify as Satan (because of his persecution of Israel and the Christians).
And then perhaps one more analytical comparison is that both "groups" are "monotheistic". The Christians are definitely monotheistic because the doctrine of the Trinity strongly affirms the "oneness" of God (in its formulations, i.e., its statements, resulting in that doctrine).
But, who knows what the Scoffield Commentary means? I'm only guessing here. The people to ask is them -- to find out what they meant.
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Now my opinion as to what the biggest challenge is to getting the people of Islam to see the Gospel message of the Bible, in that God has given His Son as a payment for sins for all who accept Him -- is that the Muslims are so radical that they'll kill their own people who "convert".
It seems pretty "basic" in their religion that anyone who was a Muslim and now is a Christian is deserving of death -- and they'll go out of their way to make sure that Christian convert is either killed or ruined or divorced from their family or any other means they can manage to destroy them.
I don't know of Christians who will kill former Christians who have decided to become a Muslim. They may think they are crazy, but they don't go and kill them for coverting to another false religion. They may pray for them but certainly not kill them.
Muslims seem to want to kill people. It seems pretty "basic". So, if you want a reason why it's "difficult" -- it's because they tend to kill all their "converts" to other religions (if they get a chance and if they are in a Muslim country).
Besides that, you're arrested in those Muslim countries if you try to even speak or talk about Jesus. I guess in Saudi Arabia you can't even talk to another Muslim about salvation through Jesus Christ -- or who knows what might happen to you. At the very least you'll be jailed (perhaps killed) and/or deported.
Is Christianity afraid of open and free "dialog" about Christ and the Christian faith. Nope, not at all. But, Muslims can't tolerate it -- probably because Satan knows that he can't stand up to the Gospel, the message of salvation through Christ. So, the only solution for a Muslim is to kill the messenger of Christ, which is what they want to do throughout the whole world (when they get the chance to take over the world -- which is what they are going to do [in their opinion, at least]).
And perhaps that's another comparison. The Bible says that Christ will return and take over the whole world and establish His rule over all the nations, in Jerusalem, in the land of Israel. With Christ, His rule is established by the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
With the Muslims, they seek to establish their "world-wide rule" through the means that Satan employs -- through destruction and control and lies and deceit (see Arafat for a master of deceit, talking out of both sides of his mouth at the same time).
That's about all I can come up with.
While I agree that Islam is a false religion, and persecutes Jews and Christians, I believe they would attack us even if Israel was not a nation yet.
I believe you are right in many points. The main one being summed up in your statement, the Muslims are so radical that they'll kill their own people who "convert"
Thanks for taking the time to respond.
Russ
But that doesn't explain a very privileged rich kid, son of a billionaire Saudi and now himself a multibillionaire bin Laden, and all the privileged rich kid pilots and students hijackers.
God had made his choice, they ain't it.
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