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Security through Freedom?
Our shared concerns | meta

Posted on 09/16/2001 12:17:04 PM PDT by meta

Freedom builds strength: it has made America the greatest power on Earth.
Trading freedom for a promise of security, though, has too often hobbled and disarmed us.
How can restoration of traditional liberties strengthen us in time of war?


TOPICS: Editorial; Your Opinion/Questions
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We need a positive liberty-AND-security agenda.
Please build on other's ideas here, in preference to attacking them.
1 posted on 09/16/2001 12:17:04 PM PDT by meta
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To: Travis McGee, PoohBah, StealthChild, Uriel1975, DAnconia55, tex-oma, OWK, Jeff Head
ping
2 posted on 09/16/2001 12:20:30 PM PDT by meta
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To: AlaskaErik, gonzo, FReethesheeples, ThinkDifferent, Sandy, sinkspur, boris, B Knotts
Ideas requested.
3 posted on 09/16/2001 12:25:30 PM PDT by meta
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: meta
Well, as I said in another thread, we must first have a formal declaration of war.

Then, I think most of us could agree on some legitimate domestic security measures, as long as they automatically become null and void upon completion of the war (i.e., surrender of the enemy, completion of objectives, etc.).

Sadly, I suspect that the people pushing this stuff would not accept such limitations on their schemes.

5 posted on 09/16/2001 1:52:10 PM PDT by B Knotts
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To: meta
You people talk as if you are going to be expected to live like the "Taliban women" with your incessant whining about your liberties. The realistic worst case scenario is that we will have to live like the Israelis. Which of the civil liberties that the Israelis have given up are you so unwilling to, that you are willing to have innocent women and children murdered? Or innocent men? Or innocent civilians? Or innocent police officers? Or innocent firemen? etc. Get a grip. So there will be armed sky marshals on flights. HOW DOES THAT CONSTRAIN YOUR LIBERTY?
6 posted on 09/16/2001 3:15:35 PM PDT by HateBill
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To: HateBill
The Constitution and Bill or Rights does not have an "in case of War" exemption.
7 posted on 09/16/2001 4:57:38 PM PDT by DAnconia55
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To: DAnconia55, HateBill
The Constitution and Bill or Rights does not have an "in case of War" exemption.

Agreed. Not only that, but I honestly feel that the reason we have no WTC today is precisely because too many of our freedoms have been compromised and cancelled because the folks we trusted to honor their oaths violated those oaths. How far would those murdering terrorists gotten with their little knives if couple of Americans had their personal weapons with them on the flight? How far would Colin Furguson gotten on the Long Island Railroad massacre? How many kids would have died at Colombine? We've lost too much freedom now.

Benjamin Franklin said:
  "Those who would give up
essential liberty to purchase a
little temporary safety deserve
neither liberty nor safety."

8 posted on 09/16/2001 5:47:42 PM PDT by brityank
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To: B Knotts
I think most of us could agree on some legitimate domestic security measures...

Such as letting people use their judgment, carry arms, etc.?

9 posted on 09/17/2001 12:07:03 PM PDT by meta
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To: meta
We need a positive liberty-AND-security agenda.

The 2nd Amendment puts it pretty clearly. The security of a free state depends on the right of the people to be armed.

10 posted on 09/17/2001 12:12:48 PM PDT by ctdonath2
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To: HateBill
You people talk as if you are going to be expected to live like the "Taliban women"
with your incessant whining about your liberties.

The simple question was how liberty, the source of our strength as a nation,
can aid security today. No whining here, I think.
Care to help us think about strengthening America?

11 posted on 09/17/2001 12:15:12 PM PDT by meta
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To: brityank
How far would those murdering terrorists gotten
with their little knives if couple of Americans
had their personal weapons with them on the flight?

"But what use could little old civilian handguns possibly be in a modern war..."
Yes, the rules just changed.
War has come home, and domestic law is interfering with defense.

12 posted on 09/17/2001 12:22:10 PM PDT by meta
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To: HateBill
Which of the civil liberties that the Israelis have given up are you so unwilling to, that you are willing to have innocent women and children murdered? Or innocent men? Or innocent civilians? Or innocent police officers? Or innocent firemen?

I see that you have elevated safety over freedom. That's fine, but don't ever ask anyone to fight wars for freedom anymore. You see, wars are very dangerous things and people get killed, and since safety is worth more than freedom, dangerous wars for freedom don't make sense anymore. Since safety is now our biggest concern, you'll have to ask people to fight and die for safety, and that is a self-contradiction.

Your statement is a slap in the face of every American who made the ultimate sacrifice for our LIBERTY, not safety.

So there will be armed sky marshals on flights. HOW DOES THAT CONSTRAIN YOUR LIBERTY?

In case you haven't been paying attention, there's serious talk about lots of other measures including fingerprinting, national ID cards (internal passports), registration of citizens with local police, wiretaps without warrants… The list goes on and on and is only getting longer.

13 posted on 09/17/2001 12:22:48 PM PDT by freeeee
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To: freeeee, HateBill
But how can MORE American freedom INCREASE our security?
14 posted on 09/17/2001 12:30:40 PM PDT by meta
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To: meta
But how can MORE American freedom INCREASE our security?

Revoke gun control laws so that we may protect ourselves. All the restrictive laws already in place after previous incidents didn't stop this attack, and more restrictive laws won't stop the next one.

What's your suggestion?

15 posted on 09/17/2001 12:37:11 PM PDT by freeeee
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To: brityank
Too many principles/ideas, not enough specific solutions.

Heres a couple.

Allow CCW carry by peace officers or citizens that pass peace officer training. Training to be provided by municipalities.
Allow open carry by citizens unless prohibited by private individuals in their own property.
Allow lawsuits against legislators when they pass laws that hamper citizens from protecting themselves against criminal attacks.
Eliminate foreign aid, loans to foreign countries secured with real assets only.
Mandatory service in the armed forces for every able-bodied citizen performed in the community they live in, for a few weeks out of the year.

16 posted on 09/17/2001 1:36:09 PM PDT by Frohickey
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To: Frohickey
All good points; but I don't have the time to detail all of the solutions that I could list. The main point that most intelligent and knowledgeable citizens would agree with is follow the Constitution. We are in exactly the same straits that our Forefathers were, internal dissidents planted and/or created by those who would see America fail. What don't you understand about the oath taken to "protect and defend the Constitution of the United States"? That venerable document has all of the detail we need to handle this crisis; the laws in violation of the precepts therein are the real problem, and must be revoked. Any suspension, in accordance with the Constitution, of any Citizen's liberties must have a certain end point -- not established by bureaucrats -- but by the elected officials.

Notice that this applies to Citizens; not immigrants or illegal aliens or tourists. It's high time Citizenship in this country was granted privilege as in all other countries.

17 posted on 09/17/2001 4:09:58 PM PDT by brityank
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To: freeeee
One example:

Would you feel safer on an airline that flies only
"good risk" passengers, as judged by the company?
I would.

Are airline executives now free to offer this safer service?
I think not.

So here, we're sacrificing BOTH liberty AND security.
Here, greater liberty would strengthen security.

18 posted on 09/17/2001 6:21:54 PM PDT by meta
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To: JasonC, VadeRetro, Physicist
ping
19 posted on 09/17/2001 6:24:00 PM PDT by meta
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To: meta
I don't know. We seemed to have come out of WWII pretty strong and with out liberties entact; despite the many restrictions placed on them during the war.
20 posted on 09/17/2001 6:27:23 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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