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Collapse of the World Trade Center - Some Engineering Aspects
The University of Sydney - Department of Civil Engineering ^ | The University of Sydney - Department of Civil Engineering

Posted on 09/15/2001 5:39:27 PM PDT by imberedux

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To: po'boy
enough fuel to get them to their desination plus a little more

And these particular planes weren't carrying a full passenger load either (so we were told) - so this 767 perhaps only carried half the max fuel load (still around 12,000 gallons of jet fuel)?

61 posted on 09/15/2001 10:28:44 PM PDT by _Jim
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To: KC Burke
As of today they have said they have moved 20,000 tons of debris which means that they are only 1.33 Percent through the pile

It's going to be worse than that. I don't know how much of the underground they count in the tower structure, but the holes these things were built over are tremendous.

A friend of mine used to ride the train from Jersey. It came up through the basement. For months, the view of the construction site was all plywood, then one day the plywood was gone. He was astounded to find himself in riding a subway in a place that appeared to hundreds of feet above the bottom of the foundation floor. You will notice that the 300 foot antenna came down straight and the top of it is not far above ground level, and much of the tower is under it.

62 posted on 09/15/2001 10:48:23 PM PDT by LLAN-DDEUSANT
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To: laconas
Maybe these towers are done for, in the same way castles were done for when gunpowder and cannons came about

You have essentially answered yourself. Fort building went on long after cannons first started breaching stone walls. The last really biggy I suppose was the Maginot line, not counting all the nuke shelters.

The ground in Manhattan's financial district I suspect is just too damned valuable to leave as open space. I can't imagine New Yorkers accepting a smaller building, it would be admitting defeat. Neither can I see them settling for anything but the tallest building in the world, and the ground site should be big enough. If not, they will make it bigger.

As for the plan business, that was easily preventable, and we should be kicking ourselves in the butt for not expecting someone to try something already put into the movies. The government solution will cause real headaches, but he headaches will soon force the arrival of real and intelligent solutions.

Overall, the thing least likely to survive this event will probably be the Bush administration. Over 60% of Americans say we are at war. Over 60% say they don't know who we are at war with. It's a near impossible plate for anyone to digest.

63 posted on 09/15/2001 10:56:03 PM PDT by LLAN-DDEUSANT
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To: imberedux
Jersey...bury it with Hoffa. I suspect it will towed in barges and dumped at sea.
64 posted on 09/15/2001 11:00:54 PM PDT by habs4ever
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To: laconas
They will have to rebuild but I too think it will have to be a different design. The WTC was marvelous but it just couldn't take the assault of a fully-fueled jetliner. If it does take them a year to clean away the rubble it will be a year before some people are able to get closure.
65 posted on 09/15/2001 11:08:24 PM PDT by Slyfox
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To: _Jim
Where are the tinfoil hats at? Any conspiracy theories yet?
66 posted on 09/15/2001 11:19:31 PM PDT by surferUSA
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To: LLAN-DDEUSANT
"The ground in Manhattan's financial district I suspect is just too damned valuable to leave as open space. I can't imagine New Yorkers accepting a smaller building, it would be admitting defeat. Neither can I see them settling for anything but the tallest building in the world, and the ground site should be big enough. If not, they will make it bigger."

For sure there will be a debate. I did some work a while ago at a regional IRS center, my first impression was; why is this center spread out so far and wide, acres and acres of a one story building? They simply answered, security. This is nothing new.

BTW, the "War on Terrorism" sounds too much like the "War on Drugs." Sounds fishy.

67 posted on 09/15/2001 11:25:15 PM PDT by laconas
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To: _Jim
Shhhhh.....
68 posted on 09/15/2001 11:50:25 PM PDT by imberedux
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To: laconas
For sure there will be a debate. I did some work a while ago at a regional IRS center, my first impression was; why is this center spread out so far and wide, acres and acres of a one story building? They simply answered, security. This is nothing new.

Security from the taxpayer no doubt. The government bureaucracy thrives on defeatism and fear; and it loathes self-sufficientcy and the idea of a nation of individuals working on common principles to diffuse goals being stronger than massa's new cradle to grave plan. The WTC was built that way because it was a commercial endeavor, not 'the consensus of the plunder of the public purse." As such, it was a failure and became quasi-state supported, but it still was infinitely more integral to our strength than the IRS is, was, or ever shall be.

BTW, the "War on Terrorism" sounds too much like the "War on Drugs." Sounds fishy

Damned right. It's really just an attempt to fix and or cover up the failure of a long term and un-Godly failed foreign policy. It's trying to build a new house on a foundation of sand. I pray sensible hands will guide it, but I don't really believe that will happen.

69 posted on 09/16/2001 7:02:28 AM PDT by LLAN-DDEUSANT
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To: imberedux
Great job,very informative.
70 posted on 09/16/2001 7:08:47 AM PDT by tet68
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To: bjs1779
Ground Breaking: August 5, 1966

The 747 went into service on 21 January 1970 with Pan Am. First flight occurred on 9 Feb 1969. Design of the buildings probably began in 64 or 65.

71 posted on 09/16/2001 7:26:04 AM PDT by SMEDLEYBUTLER
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To: tet68
Thanks, I think these facts need to be the basis for discussions. Facts are very powerful.
72 posted on 09/16/2001 10:03:57 AM PDT by imberedux
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To: Kevin Curry
I really would like an answer to that question.
73 posted on 09/16/2001 2:57:18 PM PDT by imberedux
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To: KC Burke
Thanks, Burke! This is a fascinating thread.
74 posted on 09/16/2001 6:14:19 PM PDT by Two Thirds Vote Aye
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To: imberedux,_jim,laconas,LLAN-DDEUSANT
The Boeing 767-300 has a maximum Fuel Capacity 23,980 U.S. gallons.

Boeing website:

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767-300/product.html

OK engineers, someone want to get out those slide rulers and calculate the kiloton yield of a fully fueled Boeing 767 cruise missile traveling at 450 knots?

I read somewhere that the number one product and export of Afghanistan is opium. So it looks like we might get to kill two birds with one stone on this one. Can anyone confirm these Afghani production and export facts as well?

75 posted on 09/17/2001 2:22:33 PM PDT by surferUSA
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To: surferUSA
OK engineers, someone want to get out those slide rulers and calculate the kiloton yield of a fully fueled Boeing 767 cruise missile traveling at 450 knots?

They can, but it is sort of the wrong approach. Fuel explosive power depends on it's mixture with air. All things considered, the impact was largely kinetic, and quite awesome in that regard. I would like to know whether the plane cut through the amy of the steel beams, though I suspect it was just shredded. The meaningful calculation is how much heat the burning fuel was able to produce over time, and whether any sort of built in foam systems could be devised to defeat that.

I read somewhere that the number one product and export of Afghanistan is opium. So it looks like we might get to kill two birds with one stone on this one. Can anyone confirm these Afghani production and export facts as well?

The war might put a real crimp in some of our CIA activities and capabilities to deal in drugs there. By the same token, our history of doing that there may be part of the reason the administration is so eager to go there.

76 posted on 09/17/2001 2:39:49 PM PDT by LLAN-DDEUSANT
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To: surferUSA
The effect of the blast was similar to a tactical nuke, that much we know for certain.
77 posted on 09/17/2001 2:49:06 PM PDT by imberedux
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To: LLAN-DDEUSANT
The last really biggy I suppose was the Maginot line, not counting all the nuke shelters.

The last really biggy was Saddam's front line; which we easily attacked from behind.

78 posted on 09/17/2001 3:07:19 PM PDT by cinFLA
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To: LLAN-DDEUSANT
Yup, I don't have any solid data here at hand, but avgas itself is not explosive. It's only under an exact air fuel mixture that it will burn. Other wise it will evaporte quickly.

I would have to side with the idea that Osama, and others who planned this had no idea that the buildings would come down. I think they would have wanted the burned out hulks to remain in the great satans skyline.

Our countries reation and call for war are a much bigger blowback to them than they had in mind. They wanted us defeated and frightened. Not empowered. We are so much more dangerous now than ever.

79 posted on 09/17/2001 3:11:57 PM PDT by Rev DMV
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To: cinFLA
The last really biggy was Saddam's front line; which we easily attacked from behind.

I didn't count it because we used it so effectively as an instant graveyard, plowing it right over on them at about 30 miles on hour. As a defense, it seemed somehow simply to amatuerish in it's day to be creditable. At least, as far as events actually played out.

There was however that giant system built at a resort outside Washington to house Congress in a national emergency that was finally compromised and then abandoned. I would imagine that really only happened after they built a new one under a Casino Atlantic City or some such place.

80 posted on 09/17/2001 7:17:21 PM PDT by LLAN-DDEUSANT
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