Posted on 09/15/2001 5:39:27 PM PDT by imberedux
That's wonderful monday morning quarterbacking by so called experts, but the reality is nobody expected the buildings to collapse. The NYFD has the best structural engineers at their disposal, and yet many firefighters died, suggesting this was never thought to be possible. Totally un-expected.
Simply, this is an event that has never happend before and nobody knew what would happen.
I would even go as far to say that the poeple who planned this terrorist act never expected the buildings to collapse.
For sure, there was always a possibility of a total structural failure from heat, but in this case--the buildings collapsing was a total surprise to all.
For the record, steel is severely weakend at 800C, but it does not melt into a liquid, or semi-liquid form at this temperature.
Asbestos Could Have Saved WTC Lives
Friday, September 14, 2001
By Steven Milloy
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Asbestos fibers in the air and rubble following the collapse of the World
Trade Center is adding to fears in the aftermath of Tuesday’s terrorist
attack. The true tragedy in the asbestos story, though, is the lives that
might have been saved but for 1970s-era hysteria about asbestos.
Until 30 years ago, asbestos was added to flame-retardant sprays used to
insulate steel building materials, particularly floor supports. The insulation
was intended to delay the steel from melting in the case of fire by up to four
hours.
In the case of the World Trade Center, emergency plans called for this
four-hour window to be used to evacuate the building while helicopters
sprayed to put out the fire and evacuated persons from the roof.
The use of asbestos ceased in the 1970s following reports of asbestos
workers becoming ill from high exposures to asbestos fibers. The Mt. Sinai
School of Medicine’s Irving Selikoff had reported that asbestos workers had
higher rates of lung cancer and other diseases. Selikoff then played a key
role in the campaign to halt the use of asbestos in construction.
In 1971, New York City banned the use of asbestos in spray fireproofing. At
that time, asbestos insulating material had only been sprayed up to the 64th
floor of the World Trade Center towers.
Other materials were substituted for asbestos. Though the substitute sprays
passed Underwriters Laboratories’ tests, not everyone was convinced they
would work as well.
One skeptic was the late-Herbert Levine who invented spray fireproofing with
wet asbestos in the late-1940s. Levine’s invention involved a combination of
asbestos with mineral wool and made commonplace the construction of
large steel framed buildings.
Previously, buildings such as the Empire State Building had to have their
steel framework insulated with concrete, a much more expensive insulator
that was more difficult to use.
Levine’s company, Asbestospray, was familiar with the World Trade Center
construction, but failed to get the contract for spraying insulation in the World
Trade Center. Levine frequently would say that "if a fire breaks out above the
64th floor, that building will fall down."
That wasn't "Monday Morning", that was decades ago.
but the reality is nobody expected the buildings to collapse.Funny, that's *not* what the experts are saying ...
The NYFD has the best structural engineers at their disposal,That's NOT to say they were at their disposal that particular morning - is it?
I don't imagine that guys like you understand the concept and spec'ing of the fire endurance of a structure - do you?
Even common sense would dictate that something would happen - SOONER OR LATER ...
Levine frequently would say that "if a fire breaks out above the 64th floor, that building will fall down."That explains a lot right there ...
I don't know how much in the way of smarts he really employed in this - a fully fueled 767 carries upwards of 20,000 gallons of Jet fuel - more than enough I suppose he roughly calculated to do damage sooner or later ...
I honestly don't think that he foresaw the amount of complete and total devastating collateral damage that would occur to other buildings in the area though.
He most likely knew only one thing - the tower fires would *most likely* never be extinguished by the sprinklers (even *if* they were working) and at some point the structure would *have* to fail (again, designs must accomodate *some* fire endurance, with engneering training he would know this) - and knowing this limit, simply exceed it and succeed in bringing down a tower (or two) ...
Funny, that's *not* what the experts are saying ...
What would one expect them say after the fact?
The NYFD has the best structural engineers at their disposal,
That's NOT to say they were at their disposal that particular morning - is it?
Fire departments do more than spray water on buildings. Structural knowledge and inspections is an on-going full time process. I don't imagine that guys like you understand the concept and spec'ing of the fire endurance of a structure - do you?
You can imagine anything you want to imagine.
Even common sense would dictate that something would happen - SOONER OR LATER ...
That's true.
Doh! Really? (Geesh ...)
I would have had a stopwatch going at the start of this fire - and I'll bet THEY do next time too - as another poster suggested and PULL BACK CREWS after a fixed period of time.
PAST that time - volunteers only ...
Some of those in the tower report being THROWN when it was - and the tower apparently moving FEET and rocking after the hit - I am impressed that it stood ...
Those planes were BOOKING that hit that building ...
I know nothing of the fuel capacity of a 767 but would be shocked if it could hold 20,000 gallons.Do a Google search like *I* did ...
I saw that tonight on a repaly - quite a list when it started down ...
I also took note that the North WTC tower 'accordianed' (collapsed) above the fire line BEFORE the lower structure started to collapse.
This would be consistant with the fire-weakened steel collapsing on those floors exposed to fire - followed by the over-stress failure of the first immediate floor below those fire-weakened floors that first collapsed -
- then taking down the entire building as each succeeding floor failed - as all the others 'pancaked' down, one upon another ...
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