Posted on 09/11/2001 4:27:20 PM PDT by Looking for Diogenes
it is neigh well impossible to "aim" a 767 within 50 ft of a spot on a building..........unless one has 4,000 hours or so of flight time. IMHO, the guys who running the show were seeking to simply hit the dang thang
I liked your analysis until you got to this point. It was Salon's expert who screwed up the analysis (in a way that made me wonder if he has any knowledge of physics or engineering.) You went after a bogus theory the result of which is that those who read your comment learned something. IMO thats one of the strengths os these forums. THANKS. YOU SAID IT BETTER THAN I WOULD HAVE.
MASSIVE amounts of fuel.
re the resources and expertise required to pull off today's attacks, it's plausible that it could've been done by less than 10 people, with less than $75,000, and no more flight experience than that offered by a couple of months drilling on microsoft flight simulator. all day long people are making the attackers out as possibly much more sophisticated and financed than perhaps they were; they were precise, dedicated, and fanatical, but not necessarily wealthy or well connected. if we don't reach the logical conclusions from that reality and act accordingly, we're going to have a long haul of being the world's new sitting ducks.
For example, it's actually MORE comforting believing a famous leader was assassinated by a massive government/international conspiracy than by a lone kook..strangely, the thought that a lone person or small group of fairly ordinary people can cause horrific death and destruction is worse than the idea that that massive governmental conspiracies could do that.
Also, people HATE randomness. If something bad happens, it's comforting that it was the result of a grand plan involving lots of people..makes it seem to have some sort of larger purpose, no matter how evil.
But the problem is it's quite possible for a few intelligent people to engage in massive destruction without the support of thousands in shadowy agencies or foreign governments.
Two, the towers technically did withstand the collision, the ensueing fire probably did a lot of damage, warping the i-beams and generally weakened the structure.
Three, the guy said "a". The first tower hit was the last to fall, it's entirely feasable without the second collision it wouldn't have fallen; more than likely the shockwave of the first collision rattled through the entire structure (remember all 7 "buildings" used the same basement complex, they were very much attached to each other), probably weakening the entire thing, the second plane looks to have come in a little lower, able to do more damage to an already weakened building. Again the shockwave ran through the entire complex, exaserbating the damage to the first tower. The 2nd tower, apparently haveing taken more damage, collapsed first, again another huge shockwave.
Of course during all of this you have fire and gravity weakening the structure, you also have literally thousands of feet running down the stairs, making more vibration. Every piece of masonry that fell loose, every degree of fire heat applied to the structure, every second gravity was pulling down on the buildings, weakened the structure. Eventually gravity wins, it always does.
Someone with a fairly sophisticated military. I DO NOT believe that Bin Laden could have pulled this off by himself.
As Post #20 by an engineer points out, the collapse of the building did not require great planning once you got an airliner into anywhere near the middle of the structure.
Reports from the passanger that managed to call on her cell phone reported that the highjaker's stabbed the stewardesses with knives and carpet cutting blades. These can be bought at any hardware store.
The planning consisted of finding four guys who could fly (not necessarily land) a plane once the pilots were stabbed, planning to board flights that took off at approximately the same time and smuggling carpet cutters past the X-Ray security agent.
I believe that this was the work of Osman bin Ladin but this was a pretty low-tech operation.
Such an attack can be prevented in the future with similarly low-tech solutions.
From now on, airline cockpit compartments must be armored, cockpit crews must be armed, the cockpits must locked before take-off and must not be opened under ANY circumstances even if every single passanger is threatened with death. In case of a bomb threat, the pilots must fly to the nearest body of water or unpopulated area and circle since, if you are going to die anyway, it is much nobler to die protecting others on the ground. As the Israelis do, plain-clothed, armed security must be aboard every flight to shoot it out with the bad guys in the passanger compartment.
And, as Politically Incorrect as it is (or was until this morning), there is a value in racial profiling. If you look Middle Eastern, you must expect that special attention will be given to you by security.
I saw a building that had an accidental rocket motor burn take place in it. The building bulged out almost in the shape of a foot ball from the expanding gas. The building did not collapse but had to be torn down because warpage in the long steel beams made it structurally unsound.
Same thing happenes in high rise buildings with a different twist (intended pun). The concrete and steel interface adhesion will be destroyed both by steel warping and concrete spalling. The heat can travel through the beams to parts untouched by the fire and experience failures there.
I sympathize with RKBA, but I draw the line on airplanes. Your average permit holder shouldn't be able to carry a gun onto a plane where he/she'd have a captive group of 50-400 people at the potential point of a gun, and the use of a massive, directable bomb at his/her disposal.
If your answer is that some *other* permit holder would draw to counter terrorism, I'd point out that an airplane is not the ideal place for a shootout.
What to do:
1- Keep all weapons out of the cabin, as far as possible
2- Have a trained air marshal service (don't hold your breath, 'cause you'll see one now).
but really, do we expect anything to survive a 150 ton missile full of explosive fuel??? "vulnerable point" my ass
Perhaps it could have been hit by a 707 and survive. But planes got much bigger since then
yes, that is the only sophistication and it is a fairly major one -- indicating some money and major friendlies.
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