Posted on 11/20/2025 2:42:04 PM PST by janetjanet998
Ukraine has officially received from the American side a draft plan. We outline the fundamental principles that matter to our people. We agree to work on the plan's provisions in a way that would bring about a just end to the war.
In this context, allow me to make several critical points. 1-First, while Ukraine stands ready to engage in meaningful negotiations to end this war — including at the leaders’ level — our red lines are clear and unwavering. There will never be any recognition, formal or otherwise, of Ukrainian territory temporarily occupied by the Russian Federation as Russian. Our land is not for sale.
Ukraine will not accept any limits on its right to self-defense or on the size and capabilities of our Armed Forces. Nor will we tolerate any infringement on our sovereignty, including our sovereign right to choose the alliances we want to join. Any genuine peace process must respect a fundamental principle: nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine, and nothing about Europe without Europe.
And let me be equally clear: we will not reward the genocidal intent that underpins Russian aggression by undermining our identity, including our language.
2- Second, support for Ukraine is indispensable. Peace requires strengthened security and sustained financial assistance to Ukraine. Reinforcing Ukraine's defense capabilities is not an escalation — it is the only path to compelling Russia to engage constructively in international peace efforts. In this regard, we express profound gratitude to all partners and allies. This support is an investment in the rules-based international order and global peace.
3- Third, the Kremlin regime will not stop unless it is stopped through unyielding and concerted pressure. There is only one realistic path to ending this war: Russia must be compelled to retreat — economically, politically, and militarily.
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Ukraine ping
Owen: [That’s too extreme.
The newest Senate sanctions bill has been carefully crafted to only activate if Trump says yes. He certainly has said yes to advancing the legislation, because it provides him total control over it. Check the details.
He can refuse to allow it to engage, because it interferes with his efforts.
That’s called helping the other side.]
“Trump zeroed out aid. He has no leverage. The Ukrainians will listen to the Trump proposal, but so long as European aid continues, the country will fight, much as Russia relied on US aid to avoid military defeat in WW2.”
I suspect this is the expected result. Trump will then withdraw more US assets from Europe causing the flow of money going to the Ukraine to divert as the reality hits that the EU (and the UK) are already struggling to pay the Ukraine and the peons, oops I mean people, in Europe are already revolting over taxes rising to pay for this war in a time when money is tight.
Ukraine ping
Rottweiler: [I suspect this is the expected result. Trump will then withdraw more US assets from Europe causing the flow of money going to the Ukraine to divert as the reality hits that the EU (and the UK) are already struggling to pay the Ukraine and the peons, oops I mean people, in Europe are already revolting over taxes rising to pay for this war in a time when money is tight.]
But the idea that sending $100b to Ukraine is a strain is ludicrous. Europe’s GDP is $24T. $100b is .4% of European GDP. The US sent 3% of its GDP to Russia per year of WW2. Britain managed to send 0.6% to Russia while fighting all-out war against Germany and Japan simultaneously, while Britons teetered on the boundaries of hunger. Europe can easily manage 0.4% to Ukraine.
While measly relative to what Ukraine needs to win, so long as Europe persists in its aid, Ukraine will likely prevail. Russia’s economy, at 1/10 Europe’s, is simply too small to outspend Europe’s. Germany was able to take on all the major powers at once because it had the #2 economy and had taken over France’s, another large economy, Poland’s and Czechoslovakia’s.
Russia simply doesn’t have the staying power, unless China steps in. But if China steps in, so does the US - on Ukraine’s side.
This is the reason for the war. Linda let it slip the real reason for it. Money. Our world leaders are making off like bandits and impoverishing and killing us to make off like bandits.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/CJ6UCHCmPPo
We have “some” leverage: We are still selling weapons to the euros to send to Ukraine and we are continuing with the eased up on range and target restrictions on their use. Yesterday(?) ATACMS were used yet again over 200 km into mainland Russia: It’d be interesting to know just exactly what version was used.
OTOH, we don’t have huge numbers of ATACMS to spare. So, then the question becomes whether or not Merz will start sending Taurus. Or, will Euro-NATO countries like Poland set up factories in their own countries, perhaps largely employing Ukrainian refugees, to produce Ukrainian-designed missiles? I’d be willing to bet that some subassemblies and many parts are already being made / sourced outside Ukraine.
I suspect the sanctions are becoming more than a minor irritant. The amount of Russian oil in floating storage has ballooned to roughly US $21 billion dollars worth - and that’s just the reporting from reputable companies. Total oil in floating storage globally is around 1 billion barrels — that is not a lot compared to global consumption, but present global pricing indicates a significant supply glut. Trump’s “direct” sanctions kick in today, and so far we see that China, India, and Turkey are all reducing their purchases from Russia, further indicating sufficient alternative supply is developing. Trump “buttering up” the Saudis (etc.) certainly has not hurt.
The immediate financial effect on Russia is not the major issue. The greater problem for Russia is what happens when floating storage capacity available to it runs out. Russia will no doubt try to squirm past the sanctions, but, the incentive for “the West” to not enforce sanctions is evaporating — because of increased alternative supply.
As regarding Ukraine rejecting “Trump’s plan”, that’s already done. IMO the Ukies will fight even if aid diminishes, but the nature of the war will change, and we might well see something more like a giant intifada on steroids.
It should be noted that MANY FReepers and others personalize most issues too much. Sometimes even I fall into that trap. It’s not that Z-man or Pooty are inconsequential, but, look at Zelensky: In each instance, when the pressure is on and his advisors are available, he huddles with them, and THEN comes out with a response. Julia Tymoshenko related this very well, describing the hours after Russia invaded. All the disparate faction leaders (except the extreme pro-Russians) gathered, Z-man asked them for their advice, and TOGETHER they made the decision to fight.
Similar happened here: “Zelensky” did not reject the Whitkoff proposal. Ukraine did.
The only way Russia can subdue the Ukies and win this war is by doing to Ukraine what Russia did to tiny Chechnya, which had few resources and little support. It took Russia 2 vicious wars and 15 years.
It’s a LOT more than “the Azov’s in the military”.
Ukraine ping
PaulR: [The only way Russia can subdue the Ukies and win this war is by doing to Ukraine what Russia did to tiny Chechnya, which had few resources and little support. It took Russia 2 vicious wars and 15 years.]
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