Putin has just discovered the scale of his latest miscalculation

The Telegraph ^

[Allegra]

Fighting a forever war that isn't in our national interest is something Trump campaigned against.

Trump doesn’t want a forever war. He said several times today that he wants to end this thing. That’s still his objective; Putin (and likely Zelensky) is just being very difficult, so he’s shifting the game plan.

The zeepers are doing like they always do: spinning the reality into their sick little fantasies of indefinite and ongoing war. They’re taking what the President said and twisting it to where it’s unrecognizable but it fits their warped agenda.

Zeepers love death and destruction. It’s why I can’t remotely relate to them. Well, that and the fact that they lean left.

[DennisR]

Why 50 days? Make it one day.

[Nachoman]

In response, I suspect Putin is going to really ramp up his attacks on Ukraine.

[Eleutheria5]

“Ukraine has never been an American ally. Ever.”

When were they supposed to be? During the Chmelnicki uprising of 1648, there was no USA. By the time the USA came into being, Ukraine was part of the czarist empire. During the Cold War, Ukraine was in the Soviet Union whether they wanted to be or not. Lenin renegged on his promise to support Ukrainian independence, saying that he was “protecting” Ukraine from western exploitation. For the past 30-some-odd years, Ukraine was gaining real independence from Russia, so couldn’t be anyone’s ally. That fight goes on, and a surefire way to win friends and influence people is by helping them gain their independence, as France once did for the United States.

[marcusmaximus]

President Trump is going to deport you back to Tatarstan. Pack your bags, Ivan.

[Candor7]

The French will nuke Moscow if Putin nukes Kiev. Thats a fact.

[Go Gordon]

Since when? You wanna ask Biden?

Since its Trump in office. He made the deal. Europe/NATO are buying the weapons and giving them to Ukraine. No US$

[spintreebob]

2008....2014 The US President was preoccupied with looking in the mirror and asking others to look at the symbolic image.

[BroJoeK]

SmokinJoe: "Europeans just never stop trying to get America to pay for their stupid endless wars."

During WWII, several European countries, especially the UK, transferred their gold reserves to Fort Knox, Kentucky, for safe keeping and to pay their wartime bills.
The total was about 3,000 metric Tonnes, which in 1940 was worth about $3.4 billion, but in today's GDP terms is $1 trillion.
Nearly all of that 3,000 metric tonnes is still in Fort Knox -- it represents about 2/3 of all gold in Fort Knox and 1/3 of all US gold reserves.

Of course, WWII cost the US around $50 trillion in today's values, so $1 trillion in European gold far from paid for the whole war.
But it did help, and it's still here.

1991: Pres. GHW Bush in Ukraine for "Chicken Kyiv" speech:

SmokinJoe: "Ukraine has never been an American ally. Ever."

Even before Ukraine declared independence in December 1991, it was a US friend and ally.
A partial listing of important events includes:

1. 1991 -- In August, US Pres. GHW Bush visited Ukraine and urged Ukrainians to seek independence peacefully.

2. 1991 -- In December, US Sec. of State Baker met Ukraine's new President Kravchuk shortly after Ukraine’s independence.
   They discussed nuclear disarmament and Ukraine's transition to democracy and a market economy.

3. 1992 -- US aid to Ukraine began, averaging nearly $1 billion per year in current values, throughout the 1990s.

   1994 Budapest Memorandum -- Clinton, Yeltsin & Kravchuk:

   

4. 1993 -- US Sec. of State Christopher met Ukraine's President Kravchuk to discuss Ukraine's nuclear disarmament, US security guarantees and aid for democratic and economic reforms.

5. 1994 -- US Pres. Clinton met with Ukraine's President Leonid Kravchuk in Kyiv.

6. 1994 -- Ukraine joined NATO's Partnership For Peace, widely seen as a steppingstone to formal membership (Russia also joined at this time)

7. 1994 -- Ukraine, Russia, UK & US signed the Budapest Memorandum guaranteeing Ukraine's security in exchange for nuclear disarmament.

8. 1995 -- Clinton returned for a state visit, reinforcing U.S. support for Ukraine’s independence and reform.

9. 1998 -- US Sec. of State Albright met with Ukraine Pres. Kuchma to sign several strategic agreements, including peaceful use of nuclear technologies.

10. 2002 -- Ukraine declared its intention to become a full NATO member and also began to seek membership in the European Union.
    The prospect for NATO membership was cautiously welcomed by US Pres. GW Bush and NATO Sec. General Robertson and was not strongly opposed by Russia's Pres. Putin.

Bottom line: the US has supported Ukraine's independence from before Day One, to include: 1) nearly $1 billion per year (in today's values) for economic and military assistance, 2) security support represented by NATO's Partnership for Peace and by guarantees promised in the Budapest Memorandum and 3) numerous other assurances from US presidents, beginning with Clinton.

Putin, Bush & other leaders at 2002 NATO summit in Rome:

[BroJoeK]

SmokingJoe: "America held elections fine during the civil war...so why can't Ukraine hold elections...?"

Yes, Confederate forces did invade Union states many times, but only briefly, not long enough to affect scheduled elections.
So, the best analogy to US Civil War in this could reasonably be Russia's invasions of Crimea and the Donbas in 2014, which did not disrupt Ukraine's national elections.

However, the only potential US analogy to Ukraine today -- after Russia's full scale invasion -- is the US Revolutionary War, during which British forces occupied large areas of American territory and populations, including New York City, Philadelphia, Newport, Savannah, and Charleston.
Yes, there were no elections in British occupied territories, but there were also no national elections, ever, under the Articles of Confederation.
States and localities controlled their own elections and restricted voting however they saw fit.
State legislators appointed representatives to Congress, there was no executive branch, no judiciary, and no national administrative state.

So, the United States did not declare martial law during the Revolutionary War.
However, if you were one of over 100,000 staunch loyalists -- or simply opposed the dominant political figures of your state -- then life under revolutionary American government could still feel like martial law because:

Loyalists tarred & feathered during the US Revolutionary War:

1. There was no Bill of Rights protecting your free speech and peaceful assembly.

2. Properties were confiscated and sold to pay for the war.

3. Loyalists were tarred, feathered and otherwise humiliated, forced to sign loyalty oaths and/or driven into exile.

4. They were denied legal recourse

5. And jailed without trials

6. Printing presses were shut down, mail intercepted.

In short -- if you were suspected of disloyalty to the revolutionary cause, you were very much treated as if under martial law.

tlozo #100: "England in WW2 cancelled its elections."

Yes, it's worth noting again -- both Britain and France cancelled their elections during both World Wars.
So, martial law, in times of extreme emergencies like war and invasion, is not necessarily inconsistent with long-term functioning democracy.

[Eleutheria5]

How dare you refute Putinista talking points with historical facts!

[adorno]

America sends itself into poverty paying for other people's wars? Is that how it works?

The U.S. is not in poverty and in no danger of going into poverty.

While the national debt is huge, overall 'wealth' is not measure by the size of the national debt.

Americans still have the wealth they accumulated through the years,and that wealth continues to climb, even as there are millions suffering in poverty. That the federal government continues to spend and increase the debt, does not directly affect how people live their everyday lives. If the debt was had a direct effect on the well-being of Americans, we would not be much better off than Russians or Somaians, who are in fact, mostly living in poverty.

So, the debt is not bankrupting Americans. And the government continues to receive enough revenue to work efficiently, even if the debt is so large.

"We provide aid for many reasons, including economic and military, and sometimes it doesn't have to be requested. There are many countries around the world that have no way to defend themselves and can only hope that a friend and/or ally will come to their defense".

Now that's really funny.

It may sound funny to you, but it's still a fact.

Why don't these countries go to Europe to get Europe to help them for a change?

They do, and they also go to the U.S. and to others that might be able to help.

And we don't provide military aid for “economic reasons”

.We provide economic aid, and military aid when appropriate and needed.

Almost all of these countries, especially European countries, have enjoyed massive trade surpluses with America for DECADES even as America spent hundreds of billions of dollars every year for their defence.!

The trade deficit issue is separate from the economic and military aid issue. The trade deficits were wrongly allowed for decades, but that's coming to an end. Plus. post-WWII we were 'kind' enough to recognize that many of those European countries needed our help to rebuild, and the deficit trades were a means to an end. No longer needed, so that should end.

America has been getting screwed both ways.

Sounds nasty. ;)

But...

We are no longer tolerating getting screwed, but what occurred after WWII did serve European needs and helped to keep the peace. Now it's time for the Europeans to put up for their own defense and for the U.S. to step back a bit.

[adorno]

Point is, its not America’s business to be the world’s police man.

Perhaps not, but we took on that role, and the world is a lot better off and in 'relative' peace because of it. Neither Russia nor China or any other country has been able to become increasingly empirical since we became the world's top dog, or top world-power. It's easy to be a Monday-morning quarterback now, but, there is no doubt that the world has been much better off since the U.S. became the 'world's policeman'.

America just cannot afford it.

America cannot afford to pull back either.

Vietnam, Korea etc were stupid wars, costing America Trillions of dollars in today’s money. And for what?

Again, Monday-morning quarterbacking.

Both China and Russia and other countries, got the message that the U.s. was watching and would not tolerate the bullying and aggression of other smaller countries. We didn't lose in Vietnam and we didn't lose in Korea. Looking back today, those countries know a good thing when they see it, and America was and is a good thing for them today.

[adorno]

It doesb;t work that way?

So, why don't you ask Putin why he invaded a European country, which most of Europe had to get involved in?

[dennisw]

President Trump is going to deport you back to Tatarstan. Pack your bags Ivan and volunteer for the Ukrainian front. Signing up bonus for Russkie army is $10000 these days.

[adorno]

NATO is a bloated out of date organization that cannot field an army or fight. This isn’t 60 or more years ago. This is reality in 2025.

You're being very dismissive of how powerful the NATO forces are. They actually have more weapons and and more men ni uniform that Russia. And they also have more modern weaponry than Russia, including more powerful and more deadly air power, not to mention a nuclear arsenal.

As was the joke in the British TV show “Yes PrimeMinister” The NATO armies go home on weekends so any attack on Europe must happen Monday thru Friday.

A joke does not represent reality. Learn the difference.

[adorno]

“Is there an official way of declaring a country to be an ally of the U.S. or of Europe?”

Yes. They have military pacts/agreements in place. Outside of that, its a no to US tax payer dollars paying for their wars, especially since America has debts of close to $37 Trillion with interest payments of over $1.12 Trillion a year.

You didn't provide a good answer to the question.

Alliances and friendships, do not have to be strictly stated through treaties or pacts. We have come to the aid of countries that were not covered by treaties or defense pacts or started agreements. And the U.S. will be there again when needed, and no official alliance pact needed.

[dennisw]

As Europe militarizes against the Ukrainian invasion, this injection of reality hopefully leads them to stop the Muslim invasion via immigration. The third world invasion too.

[USA-FRANCE]

“As Europe militarizes against the Ukrainian invasion, this injection of reality hopefully leads them to stop the Muslim invasion via immigration. The third world invasion too.”

>>>>>>>>>>>>

You are right and it’s already happening. Even in Sweden they are closing down immigration as much possible. The awakening has begun.

PS. I presume you meant the Russian invasion and not the “Ukrainian invasion” in your comment... :)

All the best,

[BroJoeK]

"How dare you refute Putinista talking points with historical facts!"

😉