Zelensky rules out ceding Ukrainian land in Victory Plan, urges NATO invite

Yahoo ^ | 10/16/24 | Yahoo

[hardspunned]

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky on Wednesday unveiled his long-awaited Victory Plan to end Russia's invasion, rejecting any territorial concessions and urging ramped-up Western backing, including an invitation to join NATO.

After pushing back Russian troops at the start of the invasion in February 2022, Kyiv is now facing mounting pressure to find an exit strategy as its troops suffer battlefield losses and Moscow intensifies its strikes on infrastructure.

Russia has seized around a fifth of Ukraine's territory since the invasion began, reducing towns and cities to rubble and killing thousands of civilians.

[Sunsong]

I support Ukraine’s sovereignty, but Zelensky is off here. He needs to listen to those who have helped him since putin’s evil invasion.

[Cronos]

https://kyivindependent.com/zelensky-victory-plan/

The proposal is comprised of five points:
1. an invitation to join NATO,
2. a defense aspect,
3. deterrence of Russian aggression,
4. economic growth and cooperation, and
5. post-war security architecture.

Unfortunately, none of these is a victory plan.

The way I see it, Ukraine has three options:
1. Keep fighting and hope that either Putin dies or the Russians rise up like in 1917. I’ve been expecting the latter, but it hasn’t happened yet and I kind of doubt it is going to happen anytime soon —> BECAUSE the dissenting Russians have already left Russia.

He may lose more territory, but Russia has also reached its limits and it may gain a few more sq km, but nothing more

2. Give up Kursk in return for a de facto border where it is right now.

This is exactly the opposite of what I think is a good idea - because I strongly believe that Russia will come back in a few years and try and chop off more territory. This could be a lower case scenario considering how weakened Russia has become and how anti-Russian-state the Ukrainians have been made by the Feb 2022 invasion.

3. Try an attack from Mariupol/something unusual. I’m no military expert, but I think the time for that was in 2023, now we’re just in a stalemate.

If option #2, then a pathway to NATO could be possible - provided the borders get changed. But I don’t think that would be agreed, so there would be no pathway to NATO.

There are no good options - not for Russia, nor for Ukraine.

Russia has already lost prestige, money and thousands of young it can’t afford to lose.

This war was caused by Putin’s hubris in Feb 2022 — I always think, what if he hadn’t invaded but just kept troops on the border and threatened: NATO would have given in, Ukraine would have given in and he would have got a victory without a shot fired.

[Kazan]

Zelensky knows there is no scenario where Ukraine gets any territory back or ends up in NATO.

He can't say otherwise, however, because the neo-Nazis in Ukraine will kill if he does.

[Kazan]

Provide ANY proof that he (or any Ukrainian leader) called for the expulsion of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

For ten years, the goal was to drive out ethnic Russians and Russian speakers from Donetsk and Lugansk.

The people there were being persecuted and targeted because they opposed the illegal coup that drove out a President they voted for.

Laws were passed requiring all government documents be printed in Ukrainian and that schools only taught Ukrainian.

Zelenksy ran as the peace candidate. That is how he got elected. Then, he was forced to reverse course by the neo-Nazi and Ukrainian nationalists that threaten his life.

The war would never have happened if Ukraine had abided by the Minsk Accords, which it signed. Minsk gave Donetsk and Lugansk the autonomy to create laws US states have.

[Kazan]

Unfortunately, none of these is a victory plan.

There only long shot victory is Ukraine being allowed into NATO and us and other NATO countries fighting a bloody war against Russia, which would likely lead to WW III and, possibly, nuclear war.

[rxh4n1]

“Provide ANY proof that he (or any Ukrainian leader) called for the expulsion of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.”

There’s already been talk of punishing “collaborators” and “traitors”. Looks like there’ll be some bloody ethnic cleansing if they get their territory back. That’s how it goes with your dirty ethnic border wars.

[Cronos]

Do YOU have ANY proof that he (or any Ukrainian leader) called for the expulsion of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

Links or videos please of who said what and when

[Cronos]

That’s false.

Do you have ANY proof that he (or any Ukrainian leader) called for the expulsion of Russian-speaking Ukrainians?

[Kazan]

They didn't have to call for expulsion.

They were persecuting and killing those in Donetsk and Lugansk.

The illegal coup setoff a civil war.

[rxh4n1]

“Links or videos please of who said what and when”

Step off and do your own work. Several reports have even been posted here.

[Cronos]

There have been none posted here because no Ukrainian leader has called for the expulsion of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

You are repeating another Kremlin like.

Yes, that’s another Kremlin like alongside the bio labs etc.

[Cronos]

Ukrainians were not persecuting or killing people in the Donbas.

Putin’s horde were and are doing that

[Kazan]

Ukrainians were not persecuting or killing people in the Donbas.

Really?

The police in Mariupol and the Ukrainian military didn't engage in shootout after the illegal coup in 2014?

39 people organizing a petition drive against the coup in Odessa weren't trapped and burned to death in a trade union building?

You're either willfully ignorant or lying.

[rxh4n1]

“Yes, that’s another Kremlin like alongside the bio labs etc.”

Sure pal. There are even posters here calling for revenge on the Russians. The USA should have nothing to do with your ethnic blood feuds.

[BobL]

Thanks Kazan, there will always be (future) Holocaust Deniers here.

[Cronos]

I didn't speak about posters on FR,

My question is clear - the pro-Putin poster made a claim to which I asked: Do YOU have ANY proof that he (or any Ukrainian leader) called for the expulsion of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

You claim that such proof exists - and I'm saying you are wrong. If you have any such proof, provide it or admit that you are repeating another lie.

[Cronos]

You still haven’t provided any proof for your false claim that he (or any Ukrainian leader) called for the expulsion of Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

if you can’t provide proof, admit that it is a lie and ask yourself why are you repeating lies over and over again?

[Cronos]

Even the DPR refutes the Kremlin narrative on this alleged persecution of Rusdian Ukrainians.

Their last verified statement on civilian deaths in Ukraine as a consequence of the nonexistent genocide was... Less than fifty. In an entire calendar year.

Now published in English, on their own website, presumably so that people who insist it’s western lies can’t argue that this is in effect the Russian government’s own proxy calling bullshit on Putin’s phony Causus Belli.

https://eng.ombudsman-dnr.ru/annual-reports/

A year after that report was published, Putin readied the invasion force. To stop a genocide 2 years after it ended.

You can’t say these people are on the side of the Ukes... They literally stand in front of buildings that were obviously hit by massive rockets and claim that small arms fire and tank munitions fired by Azov did all that damage (how they avoid the fact Russia and the Kadyrovites both admit there was incendiary shelling at the time, by THEIR forces, is anybody’s guess)..

https://eng.ombudsman-dnr.ru/ukrainian-militants-tried-to-raze-mariupol-to-ground-daria-morozova/

Russia blames the Red Cross for not being able to evacuate Mariupol. The ICRC blames Russia. Russia blames Azov. Azov blames Wagner and tge Kadyrovites.

All of them are being economical with the actualite. Such is life in wartime.

Except...

Normally when Russia makes a claim that’s a bit disingenuous that benefits the DPR you can count on the DPR to give it the benefit of the doubt.

So how come the Azov Nazi genocide Putin claim is different? Is it a lie so bare-faced that even the DPR can’t defend it?

They had two years to polish that annual report which effectively said the DPR and Kyiv were having significant success at ending the violence without Russian interference... They could easily have buried it.

Instead, they’ve translated it to English and published it.

It’s now in the public domain. Putin lied. Source? The DPR.

Would Mariupol have been razed at all if Putin hadn’t sent his troops, Wagner and Kadyrovites in?

No. Funnily enough, Azov didn’t have the manpower, let alone that kind of firepower, needed to turn Mariupol into ruins. Russia did though.

Russia took "territory from Ukraine" in 2014 as you note - they took Crimea and de facto took the Donetsk People's republic and the Luhansk People's republic

That is the year by year breakdown of deaths in the Donbas attributed to miliary operations

or if you just limit this to civilian deaths by mine-related incidents

Russia TOOK this land, but it came back 8 years later for more

What guarantee is there that Russia will not take what it controls now and come back later for more?

The Russian speaking Ukrainians had declared themselves a separate state and were being attacked by the Azov Brigade before the Russians invaded

that is false - there are many Russian speaking Ukrainians who did not want to be separate nor a part of Russia - one of those Russian speakers is Zelenskyy himself

Furthermore, From 2019 polls done on BOTH sides of the de facto border of the DPR/LPR and Ukraine -- Donbas: Majority wants DNR/LNR to be part of Ukraine

A survey among the population in Donbas shows that a majority on both sides of the front line prefers for the DNR/LNR to remain part of Ukraine. While opinions on the future status are diverse, the option to be part of Ukraine without an autonomous status has even gained in popularity in the non-government-controlled Donbas.

[BobL]

Kazan provided what was needed. Enjoy Russia, they’ll soon be at your border.

[rxh4n1]

There you go lying again. They talked about punishing “collaborators” and “traitors”. I didn’t mention expulsion but now that you mention it, they might do that too. Now don’t go away mad, just go away.