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To: PGR88
In return for Ukraine giving up the hundreds of nukes and delivery systems they had at the end of the Cold War, Russia made repeated formal guarantees of Ukraine's territorial integrity. The US and NATO also gave guarantees of Ukraine's sovereignty and territory.

Then Russia broke its promises by seizing control of territory in the east of Ukraine and intervening in Ukrainian politics with a heavy hand. The US and NATO began to provide assistance to Ukraine, none of which violated any treaty or promise to Russia.

As always, Putin claims that help for victims to defend themselves against his thuggery is provocative. I am disappointed that Farage buys into that.

More broadly, by supporting Ukraine in defending herself against Russia, the US and NATO are gradually bleeding out Russia's military power and state finances, just as we did to the USSR during the Cold War. Russia is increasingly unable to develop and deploy new weapons, and within ten years, even their massive nuclear stockpile will be mostly unreliable for lack of maintenance.

Moreover, Russia's demographic crisis and industrial decline are continuing, and there is a fair chance that the Russian Federation will start to lose members as Russian state power declines. For the US and NATO, a great benefit of Ukraine's victory against Russia will be the end of Russia as a major military threat.

38 posted on 06/21/2024 12:25:21 PM PDT by Rockingham
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To: Rockingham

Russia is still winning, filling its pockets with $$$ energy revenues, 70 billion last month…while the collective West is plunging further into bankruptcy.


46 posted on 06/21/2024 12:31:21 PM PDT by delta7
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To: Rockingham

“In return for Ukraine giving up the hundreds of nukes and delivery systems they had at the end of the Cold War”

I understand that the “nukes and delivery systems” legally belonged to the Commonwealth of Independent States, the legal successor to the CCCP.

If North Dakota declared independence, the USAF nuclear missiles in the state would remain under Pentagon control.

A Major Anderson[Fort Sumter] type officer would not let the North Dakota National Guard seize the missiles.


57 posted on 06/21/2024 1:05:02 PM PDT by Brian Griffin
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To: Rockingham

Wow, that was a pure Ukrainian AZOZ Wet Dream.

Putin has decided after the weekend that it is time to absorb the final Ukrainian Great Offensive 3.0 and then finish this war. Zelenski will not be president, nor as long as he is president will there be any negotiations. The NATO MIC and corrupt politicians like Biden formented a coup, and then subhuman’s like Zelenski sold off all of Ukraine’s viable resources and assets in order to enrich the West and in return he built a 1.2m army which is being dismantled as we speak.


62 posted on 06/21/2024 2:09:08 PM PDT by Jumper
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To: Rockingham; PGR88
In return for Ukraine giving up the hundreds of nukes and delivery systems they had at the end of the Cold War, Russia made repeated formal guarantees of Ukraine's territorial integrity. The US and NATO also gave guarantees of Ukraine's sovereignty and territory.

This is absolutely false.

Neither Russia, nor anyone else, made any "guarantees" of Ukraine's territorial sovereignty, formal or otherwise.

The Budapest Memorandum was a MEMORANDUM, a non-binding political assurance, not a TREATY, a legally binding guarantee.

Ukraine gave up nukes that never belonged to Ukraine, which were unusable by Ukraine, which Ukraine could not maintain, in return for international recognition. The U.S. and Russia joined together to not consider recognizing Ukraine until it had become a non-nuclear member of the Non-Proliferation Treaty.

In 2022, not a single nation recognizen any "guarantee" to Ukraine to defend Ukrainian territory.

The actual language of the Memorandum makes clear the limits of what was assured.

Memorandum on security assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons. Budapest, 5 December 1994.

MEMORANDUM ON SECURITY ASSURANCES IN CONNECTION WITH UKRAINE’S ACCESSION TO THE TREATY ON THE NON-PROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America,

Welcoming the Accession of Ukraine to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon state,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces,

Confirm the following:

1. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the independence and sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

2. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

3. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the Principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non­-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

5. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America reaffirm, in the case of Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

6. Ukraine, the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the United States of America will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

Signed in four copies having equal validity in the Ukrainian, English, and Russian languages.

Since the day it was signed, the Memorandum was worth slightly less than the paper it was written on. Since being nullified by an actual treaty, the Minsk Accords, the Memorandum is worth nothing at all. It was never worth more than a referral to the UN Security Council where all named parties except Ukraine held a veto; or to a consultation among the states.

The following occurred in 1992, well before the Budapest Memorandum of 1994.

https://2009-2017.state.gov/documents/organization/27389.pdf

START Treaty

LISBON PROTOCOL of May 23, 1992

Protocol to the Treaty between the United States of America and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics on the Reduction and Limitation of Strategic Offensive Arms

ARTICLE V

The Republic of Byelarus, the Republic of Kazakhstan, and Ukraine shall adhere to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons of July 1, 1968 as non-nuclear weapon states Parties in the shortest possible time, and shall begin immediately to take all necessary action to this end in accordance with their constitutional practices.

https://digitalarchive.wilsoncenter.org/document/letter-us-president-g-h-w-bush-ukrainian-president-l-kravchuk

Letter from US President G. H. W. Bush to Ukrainian President L. Kravchuk, June 23, 1992

Dear Mr. President:

On May 23 in Lisbon, five nations signed a protocol which opened the way for all five to ratify and become parties to the START Treaty. This historic accomplishment recognizes the essential role of Ukraine in fulfilling the obligations of the former Soviet Union under the Treaty. Imlementation of the START Treaty will enhance stability by substantially reducing nuclear weapons and strategic offensive arms and by laying a foundation for further reductions. The United States looks forward to working with Ukraine as a full and equal partner in implementing the Treaty and reducing the burden of nuclear weapons that are a legacy of the former Soviet Union.

As part of this agreement, Ukraine will adhere to the Non-Proliferation Treaty in the shortest possible time. This is an important step along the path laid out in the statement of the Verkhovna Rada of Ukraine on the non-nuclear status of Ukraine. When the Non-Proliferation Treaty was negotiated in 1968 the United States formally declared its intention to seek immediate action in the United Nations Security Council to provide assistance to any non-nuclear weapons state party that is the object of aggression or threats of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used. Mr. President, let me formally state that the United States stands by that commitment to Ukraine.

[...]

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/sites/default/files/documents/qviw5v-c5kmg/28.pdf

Letter from President George H. W. Bush to President Leonid Kravchuk via Privacy Channels. December 4, 1992.

Over the past year, the United States and its partners have welcomed Ukraine into the western community of nations. Ukraine is a party to csce and the CFE treaty, and a member of the North Atlantic Cooperation Council. Ukraine has demonstrated its commitment to peace by the bravery of your peacekeepers now on duty in Bosnia. Ukraine's pledge in its declaration of sovereignty to be a non-nuclear state has been particularly welcomed throughout the world.


113 posted on 06/21/2024 9:27:39 PM PDT by woodpusher
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