Posted on 06/17/2024 3:03:51 AM PDT by tlozo
Ukraine until Putin's rumblings in the early 2000s that Ukraine was not a legitimate country, that the fall of the USSR was a world tragedy etc. and his glorification of Muscowite expansions -- until that point, Ukraine was satisfied enough to be between world.
They actually thought that their borders would be respected by all
But Putin's invasion in 2014 was what reinforced Ukraine's modern sense of identity
Like "Ukraine has a right to defend itself"?
Or "If Vladimir Putin makes peace conditional on Ukraine promising not to join NATO then surely Ukraine has the right to demand that Russia doesn't make a military alliance with China, Russia's neighbours also have security interests"
What do you think they want?
Pure bunk, that is the propaganda ruse to garner support & hatred for Russia & Putin, period.
This conflict didn't start with Russian aggression, it started with NATO expansion aggression. NATO was started when the USSR existed because they were aggressively building an empire to combat the US empire that was rising up from the victory of WWII, shortly on the heels of WWI.
There was a period where we were the face of good, but power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. My country no longer resembles the country I was born into, sadly enough.
We lost our moral compass when we ejected the Lord from the public square. The debauchery has only continued to expand ever since, and the good is all but gone from the majority of Americans.
Right, which is why Putin didn't care about Finland joining NATO.
Ukraine is no threat to Russia. NATO is only a threat the way a bulletproof vest is a threat to a gun. The existence of a free & democratic Ukraine is a threat to *Putin* because its example shows prosperity & liberty are possible, in contrast with his imploding dictatorship.
Mearsheimer describes in detail how vindictive Putin would be if things ever came to war. He foretold that a war between the Kremlin and Ukraine would be highly destructive, that Muscowy would not merely want Ukraine, it wanted to destroy Ukraine.
He predicted that if Muscowy couldn’t control Ukraine, it would damage the country so badly that it would be unviable as a country, so that any suggestion of Ukraine joining the EU or NATO would be impossible.
Basically, Muscowy would play the part of the overbearing and jealous boyfriend who throws acid in the face of the girl who wants rid of him. Motivated through pure evil and spite - if he can’t have her, no-one else could.
Mearsheimer’s work has been used by some to exonerate Putin’s actions in the war with Ukraine. His arguments have been used to attribute the blame for the war on the West; and specifically on NATO
The plain fact of the matter is that Ukraine is a sovereign state. It is not accountable to Muscowy. It is not a buffer zone and has neither a role in, nor any responsibility for, Muscowy’s national security.
The choice to join NATO is Ukraine’s.
The choice to interfere in Ukraine’s affairs was the Kremlin’s.
The choice to invade Ukraine was russia’s.
You're problem is that you only see the evil of the USSR every time you see Russia, and you only see the good when you see the US.
I wish with all my heart that was still the reality, but it is not. Time for you to start seeing the reality yourself. Time for your nation to start building up its own defensive safe guards. The world has broken the US by depending upon us to be their saviors. We can no longer carry that burden alone. You all need to step up to the plate because there are evil forces arrayed against all of us. The threat no longer solely emanating strictly from Russia. In fact, I would say Russia ranks rather low on the threat entity.
Stop jumping at shadows and start seeing what is really the growing threat to all of us. Just to give you a clue, you probably see the major threat as being friends wanting to only doo good deeds. They are not at all. In fact they see you and me as useless consumers of limited resources that only generate more waste & are major contributors to the dreaded boogie man referred to as Climate Change.
You see you & I, along with billions of others on this planet, are the problem as far as they are concerned. Factions within the US & even Russia are now the major problem standing in the way of them creating Nirvana here on planet earth.
Wake up.
“Because that does sound completely, and utterly made up, doesn’t it?”
One of the weaknesses of Operatives is the inability to identify sarcasm.
Yup don't see any good in the USSR or Putin's attempt to whitewash their history or to revive it.
We clearly have enemies within our country and outside it. Russia, with its thousands of nuclear missiles aimed at us, is clearly an enemy.
If someone is belligerent to you, you will react accordingly to them in the same manner.
Or put another way, you will reap what you sow. If you sow hate you will reap hate in return.
Yup, no US administration ever tried working with Putin. Okay
Read Putin's early mafia like history.
In 1990, Putin was a loser who had lost his job as a KGB agent in Germany. A mediocre with no future. He met with corrupt politicians in St. Petersburg and one by one eliminated them.
On 17 February 2000, Putin met with Sobchak and urged him to travel to Kaliningrad to support his election campaign. Sobchak traveled there, accompanied by two assistants who also served as his bodyguards. On 20 February 2000, Sobchak died suddenly in the town of Svetlogorsk in Kaliningrad Oblast. The initial suspected cause of death was a heart attack, but the findings of two medical experts were contradictory. A criminal investigation of Sobchak's death as a possible "premeditated murder with aggravating circumstances" was opened only on 6 May 2000, more than two months later. After three months, the investigation was closed without a finding. The Democratic Union party led by Valeria Novodvorskaya made an official statement that not only Sobchak, but also two of his aides had heart attacks simultaneously, which indicated poisoning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Sobchak
“It’s not about benefits to Russia. It’s Putin trying to restore the Russian/Soviet empire.”
Total nonsense. When Russia attacked Georgia in 2007, they could have occupied the whole country, but they didn’t. They could have easily done that and then conquered Armenia and Azerbaijan. They could do it to Kazakhstan and the other Central Asian countries, but they won’t.
Yet you wonder why people dismiss you. It's because you apparently can't make up your mind as to how to portray Putin.
Putin is no angel, but when you continue to tell falsehoods about him, all you accomplish is to make him more defensive
No, there has been no real attempt to work with him. Putin even expressed to join NATO, because Russia desired to become part of Europe & work in tandem wit them, instead of being the foe that the USSR was.
After all, the U.S. did that for Germany, Japan, & Italy who were arrayed against the Allied nations, while the USSR was part of the Allied nations and who contributed a lot in the victory of WWII. But refused to bring in Russia after the fall of the USSR.
Are you a descendant of either the Hatfield or McCcoy families?
You’re right. They’re not all neo-cons here. Many are like you, warmongering Ukrainian nationalists wanting the USA to fight Russia for them.
Leader can be both, especially when surrounded by yes men. Russia fighting in Ukraine for the third year is a wild success? Hitler was also dangerous and as a military leader incompetent.
Putin is no angel, but when you continue to tell falsehoods about him
Point out ONE falsehood
Well, duh.
There is a difference between sarcasm and outright lies as in your post #8 “I heard that the family of the Polish negotiator was released after he made his statement.”
That, Bob, was a Putin level lie
Map in 2020
You already had Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, and Poland bordering Russia
And Estonia is far closer to St. Petersburg and Moscow than Kyiv is.
Furthermore, let's look at NATO's map in 2024
Putin has ended up with a LARGER border with NATO - since his actions moved Finland to join
the Russian federation has made itself the enemy. There was/is no need, but Putin’s ambitions to conquer his neighbors led to the situation
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