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To: Red6

There are two measures.

The first is the battlefield. Russia is being defeated by superior force of arms

More important however is the Russian economy. The Russian economy continues to wither on the vine with absolutely no end in sight.


18 posted on 11/17/2023 11:29:33 AM PST by bert ( (KWE. NP. N.C. +12) Joe Biden is a kleptocrat)
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To: bert; unclebankster

Consider this:

The —(((military objectives)))— of Ukraine were to stop Russia from seizing the Eastern ethnic Russia areas. Everyone knew that is what Russia will go for, especially the industrial area in the Donbas and the port city of Mariupol with it’s steel production.

Ukraine has NOT accomplished their (military objective), but Russia has. Today 18% of what was Ukraine in 2020 is Russian. Likewise, the Industrial area of the Donbas and port city of Mariupol are under Russian control.

Here is an up to date map: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/36a7f6a6f5a9448496de641cf64bd375

The —(((political objective)))— was for Ukraine to join NATO. That was the ultimate cause of this war: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/

Ukraine is not a member of NATO, nor will they be for the foreseeable future, hence their political objective has not been met, but Russia has achieved theirs in blocking Ukraine from joining NATO.

***How is failing in achieving your stated military and political objectives, while the other side achieves theirs, victory?


As to the rest.

Sadly for Ukraine, when they gambled with NATO and didn’t back down, they also lost any chance they had with full EU membership which was entirely in their reach before the war.

If you want to compare who is damaged more from this war, you might want to look at Ukraine’s GDP which shrunk by 37% since wars begin (far worse than Russia), 27% inflation (far worse than Russia), debt which is exploding (far worse than Russia). Have you looked at the demographics of Ukraine lately? That was a country of 41 million living in Ukraine before the war. It’s now a country of 28 million living in Ukraine today. They have broken every record when it comes to demographic decline. Do you know what the birth rate is for Ukraine? 1.3. Russia, 1.825.

Who do you think suffered more infrastructure damage? Russia or Ukraine? Do you think St Petersburg is without water, power, Internet? Do you think it’s Russia that has had major damage across the entire nation in regards to transportation, communications, etc?

While Russia is waging this war, Ukraine today is insolvent, not able to pay for their civil servants and retirements were it not for EU and US money infusions.

Sure, this is merely an argument of who gets hurt more, but the bottom line is that your economic victory argument is a self defeating one since Ukraine is FAR worse off than Russia in that aspect.


34 posted on 11/17/2023 12:21:27 PM PST by Red6
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