A new form of warfare’: how Ukraine reclaimed the Black Sea from Russian forces

Guardian UK ^ | 10/5/2023 | Luke Harding

[marcusmaximus]

It was a moment of humiliation for Moscow. The headquarters of Russia’s Black Sea fleet – a building of elegant white columns overlooking the Crimean port of Sevastopol – was ablaze. Smoke billowed into a blue sky. First one, and then a second Storm Shadow missile slammed into its roof. Video captured the impact: a precise, deadly, thunderous strike.

The attack on 22 September killed 34 officers, including Viktor Sokolov, the fleet’s commander, according to Ukraine. Russia denied this, releasing footage of Sokolov, suggesting he was still alive. Whatever the truth of the admiral’s fate, the blow deep into enemy territory was of major significance. It was further proof that Vladimir Putin’s full-scale invasion, 19 months on, had not gone to plan.

On land, Kyiv’s counteroffensive has made slow progress. Ukrainian troops have run into formidable Russian obstacles. But on water, it is a success story. Largely unnoticed, Ukraine has reclaimed the Black Sea at least in part, by turning it into a no-go zone for Russia’s bristling warships – no mean feat given that Ukraine has no navy to speak of, and a handful of old jets.

In Sevastopol, a naval exodus has occurred. Two frigates and three attack submarines have left port and moved east to the safer Russian harbour of Novorossiysk, according to satellite data. Five large landing ships, a patrol boat, and small missile vessels have joined them there. A cluster of other boats have sailed from Sevastopol to Feodosia, a port on Crimea’s eastern side.

Driven from Sevastopol, Russia has reportedly signed a deal for a new naval base. It will be located in the breakaway Georgian region of Abkhazia, further along the Black Sea coast. On Thursday the region’s leader, Aslan Bzhania, said the permanent facility would be built in the “near future”.

[Extremely Extreme Extremist]

You know, I’m not going to respond to you anymore. You’re just not worth my time. Take care.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

—>>you’re also gullible enough to fall for the Russian lies and propaganda

Please list the “Russian lies” you believe I fell for?

[kiryandil]

The glowie weighs in...

[kiryandil]

He reeks of government stooge.

[adorno]

We should be reinforcing *Poland* about now, not reinforcing the failure in Ukraine.

The fall of Ukraine would be a lot bigger deal than the fall of Afghanistan. And, republicans would be blamed. People would forget all about Biden's debacle in Afghanistan. Republicans would have a much bigger debacle on their hands.

[Kazan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_BYzxSnh4I

"Ukrainian soldiers are being DRUGGED and forced to fight" Ex-CIA Larry Johnson | Redacted News

Former CIA analyst Larry Johnson: "If you go social media, you see row after row after row of Ukrainian flags fluttering after freshly dug graves. Thousands of them. You don't see that in Russia. So, right there, it tells you right away that the causalities are in Ukraine.

The average age of the soldiers fighting on the frontlines for Ukraine is over 40 years old. That means you might have one or two that are 17 and 18 but you have a lot more that are over the age of 40. That speaks to a manpower loss.

"To put the losses in context, right now it is estimated that Ukraine as lost over 500,000 men killed in action. During WW II, the British, the United Kingdom, it's entire killed in action in both Europe, Africa and the pacific, was 345,000. That was after six years of war."

[linMcHlp]

https://twitter.com/BrilliantMaps/status/1498655743167315976

Electoral Geography:

https://www.electoralgeography.com/new/en/countries/u/ukraine/ukraine-independence-referendum-1991.html

[cpdiii]

Large surface ships are dead meat against an enemy with sophisticated weapons as has the Ukraine via our aid. What should be noted is China has the same but better as we do also. In a war between China and the USA her surface ships will be quickly destroyed as will ours. When thousands of our sailors and theirs are killed in such a conflict, intercontinental nuclear war is sure to follow.

[Right_Wing_Madman]

BTW, the Vietnam War was not won by the North Vietnamese. That war was lost in the U.S., where protesters had their way, and support in congress dwindled. The war in Ukraine can only be lost via loss of support from the U.S.

In Vietnam, the US never launched a decisive operation into North Vietnam because it would have meant war with China, like what happened in Korea.

You're in the same predicament now and repeating the same mistakes. Ukraine isn't worth the slaughter to Americans that a direct conflict with Russia would cost. So you have to half-ass the war (we'll send Stingers!) while achieving really nothing on the battlefield. Like what happened in Vietnam, the public will tire of an undeclared war going nowhere.

[Spktyr]

In the Black Sea, most combatants are toast against even unsophisticated weapons launched from shore. 60s-80s tech shipkillers would do just fine against most anything that was in the Black Sea. The fact that we’ve supplied later weapons has little added effect.

[Reverend Wright]

The lab tests done early in the war should have convinced them.

There was a lot of experimental work done on Munroe Effect weapons in WW2 because they were to be used in bazookas, anti-tank ammo, torpedoes, bombs as well as the Manhattan project.

Once they saw a shaped charge test cut right thru 20” of armor plate that should have been it.

[Spktyr]

Except, again, nobody used it on artillery or air dropped/launched direct attack weapons during the war except the Germans, and the Germans were only experimenting with it. None entered production.

The problem is that a Munroe Effect weapon, if it misses, has minimal blast damage and will not cause the collateral/shock damage that a near miss from a large HE warhead will. Given that in WW2, air dropped accuracy suuuuuucked, it’s understandable why they decided blast effect behind an armor piercing nose and fuses was a better idea. See the sinking of the Tirpitz for why.

Shaped charge antiship weapons don’t begin to be a viable choice until guidance systems appear in the post war era.

[DesertRhino]

I took the tour of the Texas in dry dock a few months ago. Highly recommend it. 150 a pop, only on Sundays. VERY informative.
A couple of things I had never heard of. That blade under the bow with a hole in it was for paravanes. A cable passes through the hole and the airfoil looking paravanes pull outwards, both port and starboard. Cuts a swath through minefields like a giant lawnmower for other ships following.

And mind blowing. She also had torpedo tubes in the hull facing the beam off each side and a dedicated torpedo room inside the bow just like in a sub, only firing sideways. They kept those until the 1920s and removed them during modernization when they decided the days of having a good torpedo angle were over with the advent of aircraft spotting and always being able to cross the T.

Another cool thing in the modernization was increasing the angle the main guns could achieve. When they first built her, there was no reason for a gun to rise above an angle to fire further than the bridge could see. But with spotter planes, they could now use the additional range, so the main battery could elevate higher.

They old us also that at Omaha Beach, as the troops moved inland and finally reached the max range of the 14” guns, they flooded the aft torpedo blisters to raise the bow a few more degrees and they eked out a few more miles of range on the 14 inchers!

Go take that tour if you can. They have a website.

[know.your.why]

The Storm Shadow is an air-launched weapon afaik. Does anyone here know whose planes are being used?

[alexander_busek]

*pssst… land wars aren’t won at sea*

Yeah, neutralizing the Enemy's navy... sinking its Black Sea flagship, crippling several of its cruisers, killing its leading admirals and hundreds of its sailors, sending various landing craft to the bottom of the ocean, heavily damaging its shipyards, forcing it to re-locate its naval headquarters (to a foreign country, no less!)... none of that matters in the least!

"Barely an inconvenience!"

Indeed!

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

The Black Sea is about as relevant to the war in Ukraine as the Gulf of Thailand was to winning the Vietnam War, I.E., not at all.

Yeah, and the fact that Russia has lost it is totally meaningless!

The fact that Russia has suffered a humiliating defeat and is being forced to re-locate its forces to a port in a foreign country is of absolutely no significance!

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

The Black Sea Fleet loss is pretty meh, all considered.

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

Putin’s Black Sea fleet was a feint.

Yeah, just like those columns of stalled tanks disintegrating on their way to Kyiv!

Putin is playing 17-dimensional chess!

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

It is the only warm water port they have and the Russians will never give that up.

You mean like they already did when Ukraine and the other 14 constituents of the U.S.S.R. declared independence in 1991, and Russia and Ukraine both officially recognized each other's borders?

How soon they forget!

Regards,

[Reverend Wright]

Even for the US Navy, once you see the result of a shaped charge weapon vs the thickest possible armor plate, any battleship is not going to have the usual 20-30 year lifespan, even if there weren’t current air dropped munitions.

Something like a torpedo or even a mine could work with shaped charge. Even without precision ghuidance.