Posted on 06/15/2023 6:51:28 PM PDT by Mariner
Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said Thursday that a loss to Russia could ultimately force the U.S. to choose between the “collapse of NATO” or going to war.
“If Ukraine would lose, if Russia would occupy Ukraine, Russia will continue going towards Baltic countries, Poland, etcetera,” Zelensky said in an interview with NBC News. “And they will start war with one of the NATO countries, and at this moment, the U.S. would have to choose the collapse of NATO or go to war.”
The Baltic states of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania are all members of NATO, as is Poland. An attack on any member of the alliance is “considered an attack against them all” under the treaty organization’s principle of collective defense.
Zelensky brought up the possibility of NATO involvement in response to the suggestion from some Republican politicians that the U.S. needs to limit its spending on the war in Ukraine.
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis — a 2024 Republican presidential candidate — previously described the war as a “territorial dispute,” while arguing that the U.S. should not become “further entangled” in the conflict. Speaker Kevin McCarthy (R-Calif.) also warned last fall that a Republican majority in the House would not write a “blank check” to Ukraine for aid.
“Is any candidate or senator who thinks it costs too much for the United States to support Ukraine, is he ready to go to war, to fight, to send his kids,” Zelensky said Thursday, adding, “Because anyway, they will have to do this if NATO gets involved.”
“It’s not Ukraine against Russia,” he said. “Russia is fighting against the civilized world.”
(Excerpt) Read more at yahoo.com ...
“Zelensky is desperate and making decisions that are destroying Ukrainian assets with little gain, and not likely to expel the Russians.”
Zelensky is the military strategist for Ukraine? Are you sure the strategists aren’t woke US and NATO generals and diplomats? In Korea, Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan and WWII the US military directed the war. Typically the nation paying the bills is the one determining the strategy and determining the battle plans. Remember US military “advisors” were on the ground in Vietnam before U.S. ground troops were officially brought into combat.
NATO/US are leading the war effort (commanding officers), and Zelensky is said to be refusing their ‘advice’ at some points. He has a job to do and he’s not letting military strategy get in his way.
Putin is a dictatorial jerk and so is Zelensky and there is already a long bitter bloody history between the two nations. Enough already. Sue for peace and stop the fighting.
This.
There was a time I too would have found it difficult to believe that Czechoslovakia would have defeated Germany, had it fought in 1938 instead of allowing the western powers to carve it up like a Thanksgiving turkey. Nor did I (or anybody else) have any idea that the high command of the German Army was prepared to overthrow Hitler if he had ordered the army to invade Czechoslovakia.
If you can make the time, please follow the link I provided for the strength of the Czech army. Not only was the Czech army (1.5 million) larger than the German army (1 million) (up from 100,000 in 1935), but the Czechs had more tanks, including about 400 medium tanks.
The following is from another source, and concerns the assessment of the German army high command that a war against Czechoslovakia would be premature, and the contemplation of a coup if the army was ordered to attack.
“...the army, which was the only institution in Germany that could have opposed Hitler from an early stage, showed no inclination to do so. Hitler solidified his power still further in February 1938, when he dismissed Blomberg and Fritsch [leaders of the army prior to Hitler], while the army did nothing. Another crisis passed later that year, when Beck tried to organize resistance to Hitler’s plan to attack Czechoslovakia. Beck did not oppose war, but he did not believe Germany was ready for the conflict. No other generals would back him up, however, and he soon resigned. Halder, his successor, went so far as to consider a coup, again because he feared a premature war, but Hitler’s triumph at the Munich Conference took the wind out of his sails, and he never considered open rebellion again.”
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/german-armed-forces-high-command
I agree with you that Biden cannot be trusted. Biden’s idea, at the start, was your idea: we’ll fly Zelensky out of the country and let Russia take over Ukraine. Zelensky gummed up the works by standing and fighting. Then, Boris Johnson - not Biden - messed things up even more by backing Zelensky. What choice did this leave Biden?
As to whether Ukraine can retake Crimea and for that matter the Donbas region, is an academic question. Yes, maybe, if Russia collapses. But, by such thinking, Nazi Germany would have defeated Russia. Maybe Russia will collapse, like it did in World War I. But, maybe not, like World War II. It’s not something you can count on.
Moreover, why should we care? As long as we are secure in our borders, Russia can go the route of North Korea or the route of South Korea or anything in between.
The relevant question at this time is whether Ukraine can retake Zaporizhzhia and Kherson west of the Dnieper, so as to move a potential cease fire line to the Sea of Azov. This question will only be answered on the ground, by the armies of Ukraine and of Russia.
Where ever the cease fire line is drawn, NATO forces should be deployed to that line, so Russia realizes that invading Ukraine means war with NATO, and Ukraine is secure in its borders.
Ditto the Caucuses. Now that Armenia is signalling that it might re-align with the west, it, Georgia and Azerbaijan should be fast-tracked for NATO and the EU, so they, too, can be secure in their borders and get about the business of life.
99% sure it IS Kalipornia Spammer...
However, the demise or at least toppling of the United States as the world's leading power may break Germany's self-hating behavior. If the Russians should win the war in Ukraine, China succeeds in taking Taiwan by military force or through surrender, and if NATO collapses, the Germans may once again start dealing with the world free from the effects of their post-World War II trauma.
“... the Monroe Doctrine and the Mexican War created conditions of peace and safety for almost two centuries...”
Until it didn’t on Dec. 7, 1941. The next day all the Americans who had been America firsters or war resisters suddenly demanded we declare war against Japan, and many soon realized war with Germany and Italy was also necessary. The US Communists were no longer accusing FDR of being a war monger. Russia (Stalin) had formed a pact with Hitler to not fight each other so they could each grab 1/2 of Poland when Hitler started the attack. Russia got its half, but Hitler soon attacked Russia, and US Communists immediately followed the Party line and demanded we go to war in Europe to help Russia. Until Japan’s attack, many of the pro Germany members of the America First Committee were Rupublicans who were strongly against FDR’s efforts to help the European war which had begun 2 years earlier.
Roosevelt’s efforts to help the European war against Hitler received materiel help from the US Lend Lease program wherein we provided arms, food, and other necessities on the basis that they would be repaid or returned when the war was over. When the war ended, the USSR (Russia) which had been an “allie” soon became an obvious enemy with a “cold war” continuing until around 1991 when the USSR (Soviet Union) collapsed, and various parts of Russia , such as Ukraine, became independent entities. Unfortunately, this did not last long as a new leader, Vladimir Putin, soon began to flex his muscles and fight in places like Chechnia and Georgia. More recently he turned his sights on Crimea and eastern Ukraine. On Feb. 24, 2022 his full blown attack was aimed directly at the capital of Ukraine, Kiev. This attack did NOT succeed, but Russia and Ukriane have been at war ever since.
Unfortunately, from 1945 to 1991, the Soviets not only had a “sphere of influence” in places like East Germany, Poland, Hungary, and the Baltic states of Latvia, Lithuania, and Estonia, they actually had direct control of their governments and vicious control by deadly secret police. Have you forgotten the joy when the Berlin Wall which separated Soviet East Germany from West Germany was finally torn down. None of Russia’s former “spheres of influence” have any desire to return to their prior state of servility. Failure to keep a tight rein on Putin’s ambitions will once again lead to widespread warfare and tragedy which most likely would once again force us to engage in all out war to protect our own independence. One tenth of our military budget to keep such a war from happening I believe is money well spent.
Once the Germans were warlike and mean
But that couldn’t happen again
We taught them a lesson in 1918
And they’ve hardly bothered us since then
-Tom Lehrer
After WW1 ended, our own military was vastly shrunk, and became a dead end for ambitious young men. And thus the roaring 20s, the Crash, and The Great Depression. Of course we then had WW2 and a seriously unprepared military thanks to America Firsters, War Resistors, and Commies following the Party Line so long as the Hitler/Stalin pact was in force. You mean that kind of collapse of NATO? You believe that Putin is any less ambitious and ready for warfare with neighbors than Stalin? You are either wearing blinders, or are a Russian agent.
Globalists are the enemy of mankind, freedom and Christian values. NATO is their international enforcement arm in the European Theater. They needed to be ended completely when their mission to fell the Soviet Union was accomplished 32 years ago. Putin and Russia are the enemy of Globalists and their international Sodomarchy/Child Sex Trafficking empire. As for all the warmongering globalists contingent on FR, not a one will fly to The Ukraine to fight for their pervert god Zelensky. They prefer to take delight in seeing young men (often forcibly abducted off the streets) to “fight” for this corrupt and evil failed state for their international globalist masters. It’s disgusting. Anyone who doesn’t see that is a Sorosbot or wearing blinders.
That’s a hoot
Keep trying
Good thing we have a man of principle like Joe Biden with his hand on the button. /s
What?? Trump and DeSantis are polar opposites on US involvement in Ukraine. RD went as far calling Putin a war criminal. Astonishingly amateurish behavior from a man who wants to be president.
Your words are pearls before swine. The Russian trolls won’t be swayed by logical arguments when they’re all in for a resurgent Soviet empire.
He said that Putin is a thug, and that Ukraine is a distraction, and not our busniess. Putin is a bunglier. Xi is the threat.
Biden's idea at the start, was not mine at all. I take into consideration, the following.
Boris Yeltsin picked Vladimir Putin in August 1999. B. Yeltsin had already been using historical Soviet police state enforcement tactics to crush his opposition but lose at prosecuting the First Chechnya War, when in later 1999, V. Putin took up the reigns and proceeded to forcefully prosecute a long-running Second Chechnya War.
While Al Gore's plans to assist the Russian economy, were rapidly failing:
Reinventing Russia: Al Gore's Misguided Quest [September 8, 1999, Wall St. Journal]
Occidental Petroleum (Al Gore connection) had unloaded (or planned to unload) some asian oil block work and was arranging some oil block exploration in Yemen. The U.S. DoD (President Clinton Admin.) sent the U.S.S. Cole to Aden, Yemen, where the U.S.S. Cole failed to defend the ship, October 12, 2000.
Gore’s Links With Russian Now a Liability [October 24, 2000, by Doyle McManus, Los Angeles Times]
EXCERPTS:
With the collapse of Russia’s economy, the souring of U.S.-Russian relations - and the tightening of the presidential campaign - the [Al Gore - Viktor Chernomyrdin] commission has become a political liability.
The commission met 10 times from 1993 to 1998 and produced a blizzard of agreements in business, science, energy, the environment and other areas. As Russia’s then-president, Boris N. Yeltsin, became more erratic, the Clinton administration relied on Chernomyrdin, his unimaginative but steady prime minister, as a key partner.
But in 1998, Yeltsin fired Chernomyrdin and Russia’s economy tanked, despite billions of dollars in aid from the International Monetary Fund [IMF].
Release trapped Russia funds now to aid Ukraine [February 25, 2022, by Daniel Runde, The Hill]
EXCERPTS:
The U.S.-Russia Investment Fund (TUSRIF) was established in 1995 to promote the development of a free market economy in Russia by fostering the growth of entrepreneurial companies. TUSRIF was one of 10 “enterprise funds” that were set up in Central and Eastern Europe and in the former Soviet Union. My colleagues and I have written extensively about enterprise funds. TUSRIF was financially very successful. Initially, Congress appropriated approximately $330 million of public funds to TUSRIF; through the 1990s and early 2000s, TUSRIF put those monies — plus the profits that it made on investments, more than $1 billion — into Russia’s economy, when we hoped that Russia would become a successful democracy.
Austin Beutner (board member of Evercore Partners) was President and Chief Executive Officer of the Fund for Large Enterprises in Russia (FLER/FLEER), who subsequently became the TUSRIF President and Chief Executive Officer.
Russian economic woes, plus President Clinton's bombing of Serbia (and covert training of Hezbollah in Lebanon), plus President George W. Bush's pro-longed mid-east nation building adventures (that included some cooperation from Russia versus terrorism, until 2004), plus European Union (EU) moral and military weaknesses, all "helped" V. Putin consider a restoration of Soviet annex-ploitation, tested by invading Georgia in 2008.
Ukraine was in Putin's path.
It was a clear cut act of aggression and the only people who differ are people who believe or espouse Russian propaganda because they want to believe it.
There isn’t anyone fighting a war that does not want aliies to come in and help. So what!
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