SCREENSHOT: CNN
Posted on 06/13/2023 9:21:24 AM PDT by SeekAndFind
SCREENSHOT: CNN
House Judiciary Chairman Jim Jordan broke down the major “flaw” in the indictment against former President Donald Trump Sunday on CNN with Dana Bash.
Trump announced the indictment Thursday, ahead of the official indictment being unsealed Friday. The charges against Trump include 31 counts of alleged violation of the Espionage Act or the willful retention of national security information, as well as one count of “conspiracy to obstruct justice,” one count of “withholding a document or record,” one count of corruptly concealing a documents or record,” one count of “concealing a documents in a deferral investigation,” one count of “scheme to conceal” and one count of “false statements and representations.”
Bash asked Jordan to comment on part of the indictment.
“The indictment said: ‘TRUMP directed NAUTA,’ who’s his personal aide, ‘to move boxes before Trump Attorney 1’s June 2 review, so that many boxes were not searched and many documents responsive to the May 11 Subpoena could not be found and were in fact not found by Trump Attorney 1.’ [sic] In plain English, this alleges that Trump instructed his aide to help him remove sensitive documents in defiance of a federal subpoena. A), Does that trouble you? And B) If he thought he had the right to have these documents, why was he trying so hard to hide them?” Bash asked.
“No, it doesn’t bother me because again, you can’t have obstruction of something when there was no underlying crime. The standard is set. The standard is what the Constitution says. The commander-in-chief — the president of the United States — has the ability to classify and control access to information. That’s what the Constitution and the court have said. So you can’t obstruct when there is — you can’t obstruct when there is no underlying crime,” said Jordan.
“He is not the president of the United States — ”
“That is the fundamental flaw,” Jordan shot back.
“And you’re just taking him at his word?” Dana asked.
“And when he was president, he declassified the material. He’s been — he’s been very clear about that.”
“He says point-blank, on tape, ‘As president I could have declassified it. Now I can’t.’ He says, in his own words, it’s on tape as part of this indictment, that he did not declassify the material. Therefore, it is classified.”
“Dana … saying he could have, saying he could have is not the same as saying he didn’t,” Jordan pushed back.
“He said, ‘now I can’t’,” Bash said.
“Now he can’t — right — because he’s not president now. But when he was president, he did declassify it. He said that,” Jordan said.
“Which means that what he was holding was classified,” Bash argued.
“Not if he declassified it when he was president of the United States, for goodness sake!”
“But he’s saying point-blank in this audio tape that he did not declassify it,” Bash said. “What you’re saying just doesn’t make sense on its face.”
“Dana, what this truly is, Dana, is an affront to the rule of law. It’s an affront to consistent application of the law. You have Secretary Clinton — who had classified material on a server — she was not president of the United States. She was Secretary Clinton. You have that happen, nothing happens to her,” Jordan continued before the duo moved on to other issues.
Bash was referencing was a July 2021 call which alleged Trump showed a “plan of attack” to a writer, a publisher and two staffers, which he said was prepared for him by the Department of Defense, according to the indictment. “As president, I could have declassified it,” Trump allegedly said at the time, and “now I can’t, you know, but this is still a secret.”
Nice ad hominem attack - just what I expect from you.
The idea that you are trying to propose, that merely by being president anything he takes from office is automatically declassified is not one established by any law or court case that I can find. So to use that as a defense, Trump would need to convince 12 people without a lot of understanding of the law and Constitution that what you are saying is true. If the documents are still marked as classified, to disprove that by proving he declassified them. The transcript and audio tape would appear to make that a hard sell.
I know that for you and many others, Trump could say the sky is green and you would accept it as gospel. I think about 70% of the population, even if they support Trump, would require something more substantial than just his word.
RE: merely by being president anything he takes from office is automatically declassified is not one established by any law,
Ok, what kind of FORMAL procedure is written down BY LAW that requires the President to follow, that establishes a way for us to know whether or not a document has or has not been declassified?
What an overreach-if this recording is even real-and/or unaltered-It hardly sounds like “secret documents” he had-more like just making an example of what he could do-and for that matter, the piece of paper he is using to illustrate could just be someone’s recipe for biscuits...
ca conservative
almost an oxymoron
really
just by taking them
he’s the president
they are de - classified
RE: To establish intent - that knowing the documents he had were still classified, he knowingly shared them with people not authorized to have access to them.
Again this begs the question:
1. Who or what tells us whether or not a document has or has not been declassified?
2. To whom did he share it with and to what extent did they know the contents of a document? He might have just waved a folder and said “it’s classified here”
That recording they called “damning evidence” was made in the context of Gen. Milley PUBLICLY telling everyone that he was responsible for PREVENTING Trump from invading Iran ( implying that Trump wanted us to get into a shooting war without going through Congress). That was Trump’s attempt to correct Milley’s lies.
Trump was in fact, trying to avoid a war with Iran despite the advise of the Hawks in his team telling him to.
““Which means that what he was holding was classified,” Bash argued.”
Can’t it be looked up whether it is classified or not?
Seems these people are pretty lazy to just go by what they thought Trump said.
He could be playing them. And they would look pretty stupid.
The President has access to all kinds of classified data, and just because he accesses them or takes them to another location does not mean they are declassified. If that were true, then if someone robbed Mar-a-Lago while Trump was president and took classified documents, then they could be charged with theft, but not with theft of classified information, because by your standard, the documents would have been declassified when he took them to his home.
But once again, whether or not the documents were classified or not is not a critical component of the charges filed against Trump. Classification is not mentioned in the charges. In the first 31 charges, it just mentions national defense information. I don’t think Trump arguing the documents were automatically declassified is going to win the case for him. He’s better off arguing that the PRA is the controlling statute in this case, not the Espionage Act.
Actually, to show intent does not require a showing that the documents were actually still classified. They just need to show that he believed they were and that he shared the information anyway. Remember, he was not charged with sharing classified data, so they don’t have to prove whether the document was classified or not as regards to the tape. It goes to showing his state of mind.
Now you’re getting to the heart of where I’m at. It’s all a matter of interpretation.
Just about everything a president knows would be considered sensitive by someone. That’s one reason that it’s left to his discretion.
I wish beyond wishing that a 21st Century FReeper could educate themselves on the operations of .gov You would benefit from the knowledge. You can’t be shown by example(s) so its up to you to figure it out.
it reminds me of
the pee dossier
DreyfusI
DreyfusII
DreyfusIII
DreyfusIV
DreyfusV
ad infinitum
the original Dreyfus
triggered off
zionism - birth of Israel
now I see
the new Jerusalem
coming soon
If Trump is accused of waving a document in the air and saying he could have declassified it but can’t now that he is not President... would they not have to show the court the document Trump was waving around to prove it was, in fact, a classified document?
Sorry but that answer is classified.
Everybody is hanging their hat on that one phrase.
What was the full context of the conversation?
Trump has a habit of jumping around many topics verbally. The media and his critics have a habit of taking him out of context. Remember his comment about the similarities between the Covid-19 vaccine and bleach? Trump never said nor suggested anyone inject bleach into their arms, he was making an analogy as to how the vaccine would work. Yet the media and Dems took that one portion of his comment to infer he was indeed making that suggestion.
Since everyone is so fixated on that small portion about classification, I’m going to bet that once the entire transcript is released, it will suggest an entire different meaning.
The media wants everyone to concentrate on that one phrase. Why?
The context needed to fully understand is wrapped up in constitutional powers, separation of powers and constitutional checks and balances.
As chief executive, the President is the highest authority in the executive branch. That’s clearly stated in Article II, Section 1 of the U.S. Constitution. There’s a lot of meaning in that first sentence, so let’s break that down a bit.
The President does not report to anyone in the executive branch. Everyone in the executive branch reports to the President. The President does not need nor require any approval from anyone on any matter in the executive branch.
The executive branch, inclusive of all agencies, bureaus and other divisions, operates at the direction of the President. The President can give orders to anyone in the executive branch. The orders may be formal or informal. Formal orders take the form of memorandum and executive orders. Those are explicitly orders for people other than the President to take action. The President does not order himself, specifically in executive orders. Even if he did, he can change his mind and ignore his own order.
Why bring up executive orders? There are executive orders that cover classified documents and document retention. They apply to others than the President since the President is chief executive. Even if their is language in an EO ordering the President to do something, the President is not compelled by a higher authority to follow an EO because there is no higher authority.
Item 1 in Trump’s defense: Executive Orders do not apply to the President. They do not apply to private citizens, such as you and me, and former Presidents.
Congress cannot take away the President’s executive powers. That is a separation of powers issue.
The checks and balances in the U.S. Constitution gives Congress some checks to executive power. For instance, Congress has the power of the purse. (There’s no defunding Trump from taking documents. They are his documents and for his use or his delegated use through subordinates.) Congress has many other power that also do not apply to this situation.
Congress passed the Presidential Records Act. That stupid shit Carter signed it into law. He should never had done that because it partially codifies executive powers. However, there are no penalties for the President in the Presidential Record Act. The President still remains chief executive and can manage his government as he sees fit.
Bottom line: the President can classify or declassify anything he wants without anyone’s approval. The President has the sole power to determine which records are personal and which are not. There is no one above him with more power than him to say no. Congress cannot say no. They have their own records. The judiciary cannot say no. They have their own records. Congress and the Judiciary have no power over the executive branch’s records.
Item 2 in Trump’s Defense: There is no law passed by Congress and signed by the President that limits the President power regarding classification, retention and possession of documents and records from the executive branch of government.
With a little observation it will be clear that neither Congress or the Judiciary are bringing criminal charges against Trump. It is the DOJ, part of the executive branch. More specifically, it’s a bunch of usurpers that think they have powers beyond the chief executive. They are the deep state.
The DOJ could not charge Trump with anything related to classified documents while Trump was in office because Trump had the power of the chief executive. They unwisely brought charges against Trump after he left office. There is a timing issue. Trump made the decision which documents to take with him from to White House to Mar-a-Lago when he was President, when he had chief executive powers.
Item 3 in Trump’s Defense: Trump, while in office and while having the powers of chief executive selected documents to take with him to Mar-a-Lago. He had complete power to do so. It required no process or documentation. There are no laws that prohibit him from doing so. Trump was chief executive. Those documents became personal documents the moment Trump’s term ended.
Trump selected the documents while he was chief executive to take with him when his term ended. He could do that because he was chief executive. The moment he left office with the documents, those documents became his personal records. That is based on action, not words, not process. They are also automatically declassified based on action, not words, not process. The action was simply taking the document with him as he left office.
When President Trump formally declassified documents about Cross Fire Hurricane, he did not do that for his use. Trump declassified those documents while in office so that others could read them.
The DOJ/FBI, as members of the deep state have ignored and abused the rights of President Trump. The subpoena issued for the raid at Mar-a-Lago was illegal, based on the fact there was zero evidence of any crime committed by Trump. (See items for the defense above.) Everything the DOJ/FBI has done subsequent to the raid can be attributed to the illegal subpoena and needs to be thrown out.
But the question still is open — was it or was it not really classified?
I’m still unclear as to how a jury can know whether or not the document he said is classified is INDEED classified. Why? I want to know if what many FReepers and lawyers are saying is true :
THE FACT THAT TRUMP TOOK THEM MAKES THEM DECLASSIFIED BY DEFAULT.
Well, part of investigating something is to find out IF a crime occurred. It may not have. But if you impede the investigation, that’s obstruction of justice.
Someone obstruct justice in an investigation on someone else. For example, if they WANT someone to go down for something and they hide or destroy evidence that exonerates the suspect.
Plus, if obstruction without a crime/conviction of underlying crime, we not a thing, you’d have More people committing obstruction so they could destroy evidence that a crime even happened And if they were successful then they could get away with it without having obstruction of Justice charges.
Does that make sense?
Geez, why bother with Dana Bash and CNN?
They are too retarded to understand 2 plus 2 is four.
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