Posted on 06/08/2023 9:04:31 AM PDT by ChicagoConservative27
Ukraine’s main counteroffensive against Russia’s invasion appears to have begun, multiple Western news agencies have reported.
The long-discussed Ukrainian counteroffensive may be underway, although not heralded as such by the Ukrainian government, but rather by a series of no-name comments from military figures briefing to Western newspapers. Indeed, Ukraine insisted the counteroffensive was not yet happening as recently as yesterday, but they have also recently said they would not discuss it for strategic reasons.
(Excerpt) Read more at breitbart.com ...
See my other post, but Belgorod and Kursk are the two on the border currently not protected.
Go back and look at how the attacks on Saddam’s Iraq were reported by the US. In order to foster confusion to the enemy, the offensives were officially acknowledged and explained only after they were well underway and the main lines of advance already clear to the enemy.
Uke Nazis rejoice!
Leftists like Biden, Pelosi, Vindman, etc, are tied at the hip with Zelensky and want to keep arming Ukraine and defend their borders while leaving America’s wide open.
So-called conservatives at FR cheer them on.
Interesting times, indeed.
Very true.
We basically destroyed the VC as a fighting force during Tet. However, the lefties in the media back in the US — of whom Cronkite was paramount — reported it as a big loss for the US.
The NVA was heartened by Cronkite’s words, and were emboldened to press on, assuming that the US had lost the resolve to continue the fight. More than one NVA official said Cronkite’s reporting was a turning point in the war in favor of the NVA.
Your screen name “red” is well placed.
“There are people more hardline than Putin. He is considered somewhat moderate.”
By whom? That is the Russian story it wants the West to accept.
“Leftists like Biden, Pelosi, Vindman, etc, are tied at the hip with Zelensky and want to keep arming Ukraine and defend their borders while leaving America’s wide open. So-called conservatives at FR cheer them on.”
False dichotomy. Which, coming from you, is not surprising.
One can call for Ukraine defending itself against an invasion and also demand that the US defend itself from the invasion coming across our southern border. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Russia has been demanding a DMZ between it and NATO (while demanding other countries host it - like Ukraine, Belarus and the three Baltic States) since Putin’s first presidency.
That demand is made in complete violation of several of its own memoranda of understanding with the EU, former Warsaw Pact region, former SSRs and the United Nations.
Under international law it’s entitled to a DMZ if it’s really that convinced it’s gonna be invaded over land... But the DMZ needs to be on ITS territory.
Ukraine hasn’t ever seen the need for a DMZ between it and any of its neighbors. Why should they ever have had to sacrifice even an inch of their sovereignty to satisfy Russian paranoia?
I say this as a Brit whose country has a huge problem with migrants crossing the channel. The right insists France should do its part to stop the people traffickers and small boats, , and quite right too... but the idea we Brits could ever demand Paris let us annexe Normandy, Sangatte and Calais as a DMZ (like some who’re way to the right of Farage demand) is just crazy talk.
So even though we have a situation where a DMZ would suit us, we’d have to go full retard before attempting to build it on French soil without the French actively wanting us to do it!
So here’s my idea. Occupy as much of west Russia as it’s possible, then stage some fake referendums to the effect of “we nominate ourselves to remain in the RF but with devolved power, so we can act as the neutral buffer between Muscovy and the EU NATO bloc”.
If Russia doesn’t like them apples, it can bloody well move its capitol to the Urals if it’s that obsessed with NATO marching on its capitol.
This may be part of the plan with the Belgorod incursions. They might also move north to Kurst and the oblast north of Kurst. Apparently all 3 oblasts have related features and history that relates them to Ukraine. I read that in Belgorod they speak Russian with a Ukraine accent.
“Which undefended Russian territory to the north do you think Ukraine should seize?”
None. Ukraine is wasting resources, unless the troops involved are on missions to destroy Moscow’s military necessities (equipment, weapons, etc.).
Ukraine has enough trouble, trying to get its formerly-Soviet military officers, to lead well - particularly when using mobile armor.
Do you have any facts, anything of substance to add?
Or are you only able to argue in cliche (fake boogeyman man threats) and fallacies (appeals to emotions and personal attacks)?
Ask yourself these questions HONESTLY:
1. What national security threat to us or our NATO allies is there in Ukraine?
Russia has 55% of our ground forces, 47% of our air forces, 43% of our naval forces, 1 small carrier, 44% of our population, 40% the number of men reaching military age, 1/10 our GDP, less industry, less high tech, few military alliance partners, weak military alliance partners, alliance partners with small populations and economies, a partially conscripted military. And that is who you portray as this existential threat to us using Cold War and Soviet era boogeymen arguments. The Warsaw Pact is gone. The Soviet Union is gone. They are no longer that threat nor will they return to that. It’s an (((IMAGINARY))) argument.
In fact, while we might not want to remember this, they assisted us after 9-11 in Afghanistan and elsewhere, they worked with us in our GWOT (when we had that)...
Imagine this scenario: It is precisely BECAUSE Russia is weak in conventional military terms that we are choosing to go after them, i.e. strip away their frontier nations (all oil producing nations: Syria, Venezuela, Libya) and align them under us. Ask yourself if we are dealing with the PRC and Taiwan the same way we are Ukraine and Russian? What’s the difference? China/PRC we don’t want a military conflict with.
Answer: You nor anyone else can formulate a realistic security argument for this war because there isn’t one and the threat they pose is small.
2. Considering the Minsk agreement, ballistic missile treaty, and NATO East expansion, is Russia entirely to blame for this conflict in so far that there is no back story leading up to the conflict?
Answer: We have done things where it can be argued that we lied, cheated, and undeniably withdrew from an agreement.
3. Russia went to war about this in the Republic of Georgia where we tried the same thing in a smaller scale, bring them into NATO (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-nato/nato-promises-ukraine-georgia-entry-one-day-idUSL0179714620080403). They warned us repeatedly that they will not accept NATO on their borders, and in October 2021 we gave Ukraine the green light for NATO admission. For 2 months after that they engaged us as they began moving forces to the Ukraine’s border for “maneuvers,” staging for war. Was this really a surprise, was it really unprovoked?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-59503762
If someones screaming in your ear and you choose to ignore them, can you really claim you didn’t hear them and were surprised or this was unprovoked?
Answer: This was neither a surprise nor unproved. Just because our media chose to largely downplay the Russians diplomatic efforts and the people in the West are ignorant about that, does not men it didn’t happen.
4. Considering our Monroe doctrine, invasion of Grenada in 83, and the Cuban missile crisis, are we in any condition to criticize Russia being displeased about a foreign power basing troops and weapon systems on their border?
We freak out and leverage all our weight if the PRC so much as wants to build a multi-use government naval base on the Solomon Islands, >6,000 miles from our South West shore, because like the Monroe Doctrine where we declare ourselves hegemon over all Central and South America, we see ourselves as the ruler of all the Pacific Rim: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/26/us-wont-rule-out-military-action-if-china-establishes-base-in-solomon-islands BTW, what about that idea of national “sovereignty?”
Answer: We are undeniable total hypocrites in this aspect. We are expecting the Russians to accept something we would never accept.
5. Do you really think Ukraine is a democracy, that they didn’t do bad things to the ethnic Russians living in Ukraine, that they are “sovereign” and not our marionette? We came into Ukraine after the Cold War, when they were broke/poor, corrupt, and divided, with a concerted and coordinated effort involving our State Department, CIA, DoD, NGO’s and media, with what appeared to them as unlimited resources, do you really think they stood a chance in us not basically taking over that place? When it is a known fact and a matter of historical record, that Soros admitted to funding organizations and certain individuals, when you have the US ambassador basically deciding (hand picking) who is in leadership positions in Ukraine, is it a sincere argument to talk about Ukrainian “sovereignty?” https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
What do any of these terms really mean: sovereignty, democracy, human rights? Considering that our number 1 trade partner is the PRC (a single party communist regime) and we prop up Saudi Arabia and Jordan (kingdoms with despot leaders), do we have any room to lecture others?
How do you accommodate these higher causes of human rights, democracy, sovereignty when Ukraine was where in WWII numerous SS divisions were raised (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician) and where to this day you have a large scale support for the national socialist ideology? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html (It took a year, but even they have to admit it). When Ukraine has folks in their government who embrace this ideology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svoboda_(political_party)), you see large groups gathering who support this ideology, you see its symbols proudly displayed in public, in their military, is it really unreasonable from the Russian perspective, who bled more in WWII than anyone else and are likely a bit sensitive to this topic (21 million dead and 600 cities leveled in WWII), to see a Nazi problem?
Answer: Concepts like human rights, sovereignty, democracy are fluffy mean nothing terms that are used when convienent by our leaders to justify some form of economic punitive or military action. But they are meaningless terms and no justification.
6. Considering that we’re in Syria (a Russian ally), Libya (a Russia ally) and where we started (offensive and initiated) a war and overthrew the government using NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_military_intervention_in_Libya), that we moved into Republic of Georgia, Ukraine, tried to overthrow the government in Venezuela again (a Russian ally), and this is what NATO did over time:
https://youtu.be/ug2468hDl6E
Does it look to you to you like they are invading us, or us them? Are they encroaching in our area, or are we encroaching in theirs?
Answer: We are the ones pushing them into a corner, poking them, and then pretending to be the victim of Russian aggression.
7. If Russia is sitting on 20% of what used to be Ukraine, 20% of the population of Ukraine, a major industrial area, a major port city, if the Russian Ruble didn’t drop, their economy isn’t shrinking, in fact growing this year... But the Ukraine’s economy shrunk by 1/3 in 2022, they have 26% inflation, they wouldn’t be able to pay for their public servants without our money, and they will not be a NATO nor EU member (their political goal and cause of this war), how can you objectively call this some great victory for Ukraine?
Answer: Things are likely not as our media and political class tell us as evidenced by the leaked documents recently: https://www.newsweek.com/2023/05/05/read-leaked-secret-intelligence-documents-ukraine-vladimir-putin-1794656.html#slideshow/2222794
***Where we likely agree:
1. The Russians are having far more difficulty than they anticipated. Their casualties are higher (albeit not as great as what our media throws around), material losses greater, and it’s taking more time to stabilize things.
2. The Ukrainians exceeded anyone’s wildest expectations in what fight they are putting up.
***Where we likely disagree:
1. The Russians are not entirely the culprits with us and Ukraine being entirely the innocent victims. We did things to provoke this war and on the sliding scale of culpability, in particular, it is this US administration that took the action which make us overwhelmingly responsible: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/ We gambled really big and lost.
2. The outcome will not be some great Ukrainian victory. Ukraine will lose, in every aspect. Our media might portray it as some great victory, Hollywood will surely make some Rambo movie where we win (today a female lead action hero with an LGBTQIA side character). However, it is Ukraine with a broken infrastructure, millions of refugees (many will never return home), far more dead, an economy that is depressed (1/3 smaller and high inflation), lost 20% of its landmass and population, a major industrial area and port city and has NOT achieved the political goals and cause for this war, primarily NATO and to a lesser degree EU membership.
Here is why Russia will win. Even if they suffer, they will accept that because for them it’s a national security interest, whereas for us it’s an economic interest. When you get into a fight with someone and they are in it 100%, but you’re only in 50%, that’s a problem. The only reason why we have even held out as long as we have, is because it’s not our people doing the bleeding, the Ukrainians are. We are nationally very courageous, waving flags, when spending money and arming others, if blowing up folks from 30,000 feet with laser guided munitions. Start bloodying our nose in a ground war, bringing caskets home every day, and things change: Vietnam, Beirut, Somalia, Iraq 2003, Afghanistan...
Ukraine only has so much blood to give and us flooding (paying for and arming) them with mercenaries from around the world isn’t going to be enough. At some point you need warm bodies with blood pumping in their veins in adequate numbers to keep this going, and unless we’re willing to do some bleeding (which we are not), the Russians will inevitably win.
You cut and paste well. How can you seriously say that the Republic of Georgia and Ukraine are threats to Russia? Russia makes criminal land grabs period. Russia has nukes and brags of their ability to “win” a nuclear war. Why let them steal Ukraine’s resources and grow stronger and thus more evil. Ukraine fights for its survival and fights with the Spirit of ‘76. In war nothing is “inevitable.” All the Russian and Mohammedan invaders need killin. Take your amoral “logic” and stick it. Might does not make right. Ukraine is right and with support will regain territory and add more humiliations to Russia’s military.
You cut and paste well.
-—Not an argument.
How can you seriously say that the Republic of Georgia and Ukraine are threats to Russia?
-—Not an argument, just a statement.
-—But, since you ask. It’s not Ukraine that’s the issue. The Russians didn’t move on them UNTIL the idea of them being in a military alliance was brought up and we did not let it go. It’s NATO, the worlds most powerful military alliance, basing stuff in Ukraine that’s an issue. Specifically: (1) Ukraine has hardball roads and rail lines on the same gauge connecting to Russia. (2) Ukraine has large airfields which could support strategic bombers (B2/52 and logistics C5). (3) The two nations share 1,400 miles of border, with some of that being well suited for a large mechanized maneuver forces. (4) Ukraine is large enough and has forested areas able to hide things. (5) Ukraine shares a border with Poland, Slovakia and Romania, making logistics from Western NATO nations very easy. Look at what we are doing right now as we arm Ukraine. We are PROVING the Russians point! (6) Moscow is 6 minutes Time of Flight from the North Eastern parts of Ukraine for a hyper-sonic missile, and most of Russia’s nuclear deterrent forces are based in the West and South. This puts Russia in a horrible situation where (a) we have a first strike advantage because they have little reaction time, (b) since we left the ballistic missile treaty and built a serious missile defense system, basing this in Ukraine would seriously undermine Russia’s nuclear deterrent capabilities. (7) Most of the Back Sea would become NATO controlled and Ukraine offers several sea ports offering the ability to bring in heavy military assets via sea-lift. (8) Ukraine has the infrastructure and economy capable of supporting the long term basing of US and/or other NATO nations forces. (9) Since we have violated or left EVERY AGREEMENT we made with the Russians regards defense/security (Minsk/NATO East expansion/ballistic missile treaty), they have zero trust in anything promise. Once Ukraine is in NATO, it’s “ours” and we can do as we want.
-—So yes, this is from the eyes of the Russians a national security matter and therefore they will be willing to take this game very far. If you just ignore that and want to force the issue and hope they acquiesce, you end up with a war.
-—For the US, this is especially important because it is through NATO where we have a lot of influence on Europe, i.e. EU nations. (((EU East expansion without NATO is very bad for us since it diminishes our influence - role.))) Furthermore, it is the big Western corporations and financial institutions that want EU and NATO in Ukraine since it gives them the assurances they want. For us, it’s about power/influence and money.
Russia makes criminal land grabs period.
-—No argument, just a statement. Ask a Mexican about “criminal land grabs” and you might be surprised who they tell you the culprit is.
Russia has nukes and brags of their ability to “win” a nuclear war.
-—No argument. We have nukes. We’re the only none to have ever used them on someone, twice. Not sure I want to use that rhetorical comment.
Why let them steal Ukraine’s resources and grow stronger and thus more evil.
-—No argument. Just a statement again. Is our greed moral?
Ukraine fights for its survival and fights with the Spirit of ‘76.
-—Ukraine would not be fighting anything right now if we hadn’t offered NATO. What is required to get that concept into your skull? The US, we, caused this war by offering NATO to Ukraine in October 2021 and then not backing off from that.
-—Ukraine will survive because Russia never planned on taking all of Ukraine or to destroy it. This is a war Russia reluctantly is in. There is no “self-preservation” at risk for Ukraine since Russia has limited goals and is fighting a limited war. Why would Russia want all of Ukraine? That would be a long term nightmare. Russia only took the areas that are majority ethnic Russian and which historically were Russian territory at some point, and where Russia paid for the infrastructure in the first place, i.e. much of the industrial area built in the Soviet era. Russia is doing two things (1) If we align Ukraine with us and essentially remove all Russian influence, they want the part they see as theirs. (2) They want to prevent NATO membership.
In war nothing is “inevitable.” All the Russian and Mohammedan invaders need killin.
-—That logic led to a lot of folks dying unnecessarily in the end of 1944 and 1945.
Take your amoral “logic” and stick it.
-—Not an argument
Might does not make right.
-—That is true for us and the West as well.
Ukraine is right and with support will regain territory and add more humiliations to Russia’s military.
-—You obviously you haven’t bled enough. There is a fine line between tenacity / dedication and stupidity. After your next offensive (not sure what to call this one, you have one every other week) fails and you burn up a few thousand more people, ask yourself “was it worth it?”
-—Amoral logic is something you should start thinking about applying: “cutting your losses.” War, especially when you find yourself in a stalemate and war of attrition as Ukraine finds itself in now, is all about the economics of war and Ukraine doesn’t have the numbers.
I get it, I think.
When we have no argument, we use fallacies. In fact, we then even convince ourselves that using these fallacies is some sort of argument. I suppose we all do that at times.
I also get that we all have certain ideas that have formed over the years, especially our formative years. Some of these ideas have been imprinted through traumatic experiences in the past (war, rape, starvation, etc). It’s near automatic and comfortable to simply fall into those stereotypes and cliche’s, even if they are not relevant.
But you need to understand that merely arguing with feelings and then resorting to name calling if someone disagrees with those feelings, repeatedly, even if presented with contradicting information, becomes tiresome after a while.
Please don’t see my lack of a response to you in the future as agreeing, I just don’t have the time for it.
You don’t have the time for it? How long does it take to cut and paste the usual Russian troll garbage?
At least you admit that when you have no argument, you use fallacies.
You also use sophomoric sophistry and cheap immoral Machiavellian wannabe pragmatism.
Let’s talk about what life experience I use. I’ve been to the Donbas. I have contacts, friends, and family there. I’ve been in the army. I’ve been to Russia. In El Salvador I saw the harm of communist appeasers like you. So, snot off over at DU where you belong.
One last thing-
Do you really believe that because you support the actions which led to an (((unnecessary war))), that makes you a better friend of Ukraine, or more patriotic?
Do you really think that you supporting the continuance of this war, makes you more moral, more patriotic, or a better friend of the Ukraine?
This right here, is bullshit: “Ukraine fights for its survival.”
This caused a war: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ukrainian-president-zelenskiy-holding-talks-with-biden-adviser-says-2021-12-09/
That was (((our))) decision.
The war would come to an end within days if we decide to make it end. We fund it, arm it, allow for thousands of mercenaries to go there, train them, provide intel for them, logistically back them, and Mr Z stays ALIVE with our help. If we tell him to make it end, he’ll make it end, because he doesn’t even really have a choice.
Ukraine would have tens of thousands more alive today, an economy that’s growing, no refugees, no hyper inflation, no mandatory draft where they are starting to chase down folks in the streets and go after cripples for their military out of desperation, no lost land, no damage to their infrastructure... None of that had to be.
Do you realize, even EU membership was well in their reach before the war?
It’s the idea of our tanks, IFVs, troops, fighters, bombers, nukes, artillery, missile defense, being in Ukraine which the Russians will not accept, that’s not “Ukraine fights for its survival.” The Russians pretty much accepted everything up until that point.
Again,
No substance, not one point.
Yes, you have strong feelings about this. I’m proud of you.
You are defending a politician in the White House who gives every politically aligned billionaire and global corporation in this country and in some cases even foreign what they want, literally: big pharma, the unions, big tech, trade with China, buffet and his little railway by shutting down the pipeline, massive infrastructure spending which was riddled with pork, even a war in Ukraine.
I know this is out of scope of your great moral and patriotic mind:
1.) We arm, provide money, training and intel, so that any TRUE Russian unprovoked aggression is met with a high resistance, making it costly for the Russians to invade Ukraine.
2.) However, we stop shy of NATO expansion into Ukraine as this would put the Russians in a position where they see a long term threat.
I know that’s really Machiavellian according to your feelings.
Guess how many Ukrainians would be dead with that plan? Guess what Ukrains economy would be doing today with that plan? Do you think Ukraine would be larger or the same size as today, given that plan?
Americans by tradition value liberty above all. Do the stolen Ukrainian children mean anything to you? Do the select disappearances of adults in the occupied areas? You want the Donbas to live under administrators made up of Russians with criminal histories, Chechens, Buryats, etc. The Ukrainians don’t want to live as slaves.
I guess you can’t explain liberty to one who doesn’t feel it. And don’t blame Zelensky for not making peace. Soldiers who have been through Hades don’t want to negotiate away parcels of Ukraine to the criminal invaders.
Sorry, I already give money to the starving children in Ethiopia, sad eyed dogs (ASPCA), climate change (don’t want her angry at me: https://www.newstarget.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/43/2019/09/angry-Greta.jpg) and local LGBTQIA+ cause, so that I can feel good about myself.
It’s all about feelings and I feel good about the causes I support.
Do you support the people of Tibet? What about Taiwan? I hope you do, because at least be consistent.
As a Machiavellian American, I am concerned about “Americans” and what’s best for us, brutal idea for those in this global village where conservatives like you live.
You see, I worry about Russian arms going to proxies that will kill our boys (that would be a red white and blue flag), while you care about Ukrainians. So tell me, how is this conflict with Russia making the world safer? How is it making me money? Because if you can’t tell me how it’s benefiting me as an American, I can give a rats ass about your Ukraine.
2/3rds of the world wakes up hungry every day. What are you doing about that? Is that something you really think a lot about or spend any effort on, attacking other people with your feelings if they don’t want to fight world hunger with you?
What do you think will kill more people this year, malaria, or your war in Ukraine? I hope you’re devoting time and money on that cause. Otherwise you’re a heartless jerk!
***Seriously, I’m glad you have strong feelings, but just because you have these on one specific topic, doesn’t make you a moral goddess and anyone that disagrees with you bad.***
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