Posted on 02/15/2023 8:16:59 AM PST by EBH
Winds and wind gusts were strong early Wednesday morning around northeast Ohio, and it appears to have kicked up a plume of particulate matter (PM) near the area of the East Palestine Norfolk Southern train derailment site.
According to Cleveland 19 meteorologists, looking at the two nearest weather reporting stations in Canton and Youngstown, between 1:00 a.m.-4:00 a.m. wind gusts were in the range of 25-30mph.
In that same time frame, the EPA’s AirNow.com monitoring website shows a plume of “moderate” PM kicking up east of East Palestine.
Any number above 50 is considered moderate according to the EPA, anything above 100 is considered unhealthy for sensitive groups.
The EPA’s closest air monitoring site to East Palestine is in Beaver Falls, PA, 15 miles to the east.
Beaver Falls is the same area that any smoke or soot from the “controlled burn” of vinyl chloride would have come down.
Here are the reading for Beaver Falls when the wind gusts were highest this morning:
(Excerpt) Read more at msn.com ...
Please don't be saying things you don't know. I just listened to the Congressman who represents East Palestine. He's been on the ground, meeting with EPA and State officials, and with the technical experts on the ground. They HAVE been testing the water, and the air. They'll test the water for anyone who requests it. And they'll keep testing it, for years to come. They've issued the "all clear" for people to return because the threat level is back to normal.
I just said they conducted and intentional, controlled burn. I have been paying attention. I know what they did, and why.
1 ppm of VCM is not immediately threatening to anyone. I've stood knee-deep in the stuff. 1 ppm exposure, 8 hours a day, every day for 10 years is another story. I wouldn't recommend it.
Phosgene would have been at VERY low levels. And, it's not a stable compound. It didn't just disperse (which, it would.. to levels that wouldn't harm anyone) It chemically breaks down to CO2 and HCl.
The HCL is acid, but would be also be at VERY low levels. It would quickly be neutralized by normal bases in the soil. Effectively, it would mostly be converted to NaCl. .. or salt.
It is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that phosgene was measurable at ANY level, much less 50 ppm anywhere more than 20 yards away from where this burn was occurring.
100 yards away? There is NO CHANCE any phosgene was present at measurable levels.
I’m sorry Tim, but I trust nothing this corrupt government tells me. They need to prove it to me. You are right though. I was given some incorrect info on the hazards. I just read the SDS and while it’s bad stuff, it’s not as much as I had thought. Not knowing the concentration in the air, it’s not possible to know if the LC50 was breached.
We don’t know what the concentration in the air is or was during the release.
Your Governor used some weasel words saying the water is safe yet you should drink bottled water for a while. Have they sunk any test wells with real time test results? Who’s doing the testing?
Has a true third party lab done any testing or just government?
Explain the fish and animal kills. The SDS had no data on those.
We look at the response in Flint, MI when they discovered that the homes had been built 80 years ago with lead pipes. It was a full court press. I haven’t seen any similar thing for Ohio. Is it because they are a conservative area? Hmmmm
I know. That was my point. PM is not necessarily the end-all.
America: Your TV lies to you, hides information from you, and it does not "care" about you.
A question:
Didn't the TV tell people it was OK to return to their homes, right after this happened, when it was likely not safe to do so?
🤔
Interesting post—for the “other perspective” here is the Zero Hedge article:
Feel free to rebut it if you wish.
Interesting post—for the “other perspective” here is the Zero Hedge article:
Feel free to rebut it if you wish.
Well, I sure don't blame you there. Their track record has not been all that great. The guy I heard was the House Representative. He clearly wasn't an expert, but it was also clear he'd been spending some time, on-site, talking with local officals, EPA, and technical experts from the railroad, and... I'm sure, whoever manufactured this stuff. I haven't seen that name mentioned ANYWHERE... and, I've been looking. Once upon a time I was THAT guy.
The Mayor of East Palestine said they were not relying on the EPA for water testing. They were doing their own, and contracting with outside labs..
VCM is a light material, at ambient temps, it's a gas. It has very low solubilty in water. It's not surprising they aren't seeing any in the water. The greater risk to the water, IMO, would be from any byproducts formed during the burning. Things like heavier tar compounds. But, they would be much smaller in volume, and mainly concentrated around the burn area.
I can't say for sure that they are drilling test wells, but.. I know that would be the proper protocol. They should be do so in a grid fashion going out from the spill area.
Fish kills are normal for ANY spill that gets into waterways. As I mentioned in another post, Jim Beam once had a huge bourbon spill here in Kentucky, near Bardstown. It killed THOUSANDS of fish. They didn't drink themselves to death. The organics (Ethanol is organic) react with the oxygen in the water, dropping it to levels too low for the fish to breathe. They literally suffocated.
I can't explain animal kills... especially, 10 days after the accident. Frankly, I'd say it's more likely randy teenagers killed the chickens, just to scare people. That easier for me to believe than thinking that VCM killed them.
For full disclosure, I'm not an expert on the acrylates that were spilled. I just know about Vinyl Chloride. I started my career as an engineer in a VCM plant owned by Dow. But, from what I have read about the acrylates, they are less hazardous than VCM.
Despite what some people may believe, I'm not trying to downplay the significance of what happened at East Palestine. These kinds of accidents should be prevented by any means practical. I just don't like seeing people being frightened by claims of "American Chernobyl". Give me a freaking break. This is NOTHING like radioactivity contamination that last thousands of years.
The impact of this has been swift, and obvious. But, it will NOT be long lasting. It can, and will be cleaned up. Nature will do the bulk of it. The good Lord gave us an amazing place to live. If we just try, a little, we can all be OK here.
I wish. Thanks for the link. I like Zero Hedge, for financial stuff. It's usually interesting information. I usually presume they are trying to be sensational in their claims. But, it's still interesting to see their claims. Twice a day, even a broken clock is correct. But, I am no financial expert. It will be good to check their veracity on a topic I DO know about.
For starters, their Headline, "Ohio Chernobyl" is ridiculous. But, headlines are designed to grab attention. So, I'll look past that. I would just say, Chernobyl is to East Palestine as 9/11 is to the 1993 WTC bombing. Both are bad. One is catastrophic.
Most of what they lead with, about the need for investigation, and the evidence that bearings were seizing up on one car before it approached Palestine, I fully agree with and am glad to see reported. There SHOULD be detailed, serious investigation to determine the ROOT cause of this. I have a former co-worker, and still good friend who works as an investigator for the NTSB. I'm confident that they will get to the bottom of this.
I'm also 100% confident that the people in that area have nothing to fear any more from VCM. The point raised about dioxins in an interesting one. For sure, yes... when any chlorinated solvents are burned, some level of dioxins are formed. And, dioxins seem to be potentially harmful, over the long run, at VERY low levels. But, I would expect any contamination of that sort to be very localized. It would only be in the area directly where the burn actually happened... not 100's of yards away. I would expect, much of that soil to be removed, incinerated, and disposed in a hazardous waste landfill. Therefore, NO long-term threat to the people that live around there.
As for the people, who are claiming to be sick? Let me just relate this story to you. Many years ago, I worked at a plant that had a MINOR anhydrous ammonia release from a large tank. The amount released was tiny. MAYBE, people standing at our fence line could have smelled it? I doubt it. But, the release was reported, and announced on the 10 PM news in Texas City, Tx. Within 30 minutes of the broadcast, people were showing up at local ER's, reeking of ammonia, claiming they has been affected. By midnight, there was ZERO aqueous ammonia available for sale on the shelves of any local grocery store. It was routinely sold then as a cleaning agent. Yes... people were buying it, splashing it on themselves, and then running the to hospital, claiming to have been exposed.
People KNOW there will be large legal settlements coming. They want a piece of the action. I have little doubt that the people closest to this accident will have some real impacts, and be deserving of some compensation. I also have little doubt that a BUNCH of people, miles away, will CLAIM to have awful impacts... and, be nothing more than hucksters.
There is no reason to believe that anyone more than a few miles away had, or will have, ANY significant impact from this awful spill.
If groundwater has been contaminated, they can drill wells, collect it, and dispose. If ground has been contaminated, they can dig it up, and safely dispose it. The air cleans itself VERY quickly, as long as the source is stopped.
I'd say Zero Hedge is about what I thought they were. Headline grabbers, looking for clicks, with SOME good information, and some sensational reports reflecting "worst case" scenarios. But, in this case, I'd say their 'worst case" is about was likely as Joe Biden winning and surviving a 2nd term... probably even less.
I’ve had to wait 25 years for a topic to arise on FR that I actually consider myself to be an “expert” about. No one knows EVERYTHING. But, I’m very happy to finally share my true expertise to this board, that I love. And to finally have a chance to educate others in ways that they have educated me.
There has always been a lot of ‘noise’ here at FR. But, there has also ALWAYS been people who KNEW WTF they were talking about. Usually, I’ve believed I could tell the difference. I think, most will be able to tell here too.
You don’t speak sarcasm too well, do you?
Its my primary language bro.
LOL well, I'd say I'm "conversational", if not fluent. It can be hard to decipher on this topic. So many, are SO crazy. Who knows?
Please address the “dead animals” claim—either it did or it did not—that should be easy to verify.
This is what I've said about that:
I can't explain animal kills... especially, 10 days after the accident.
Generally, I don't beleive them...unless proven to be true. I don't live there. I'm not a reporter. I don't see any reason why ANY animals should be dying, 2 weeks after the accident. If they are, I'll admit to not knowing ALL the details.
Even earlier, it's hard to understand why chickens would be dying. But, as has been mentioned, birds are FAR more susceptible to poisons than humans. Maybe, if they were close enough, they were exposed to levels too high for birds?
For sure, that should be ALL over now. Any new claims of dead birds, I would be extremely skeptical.
Porter Ranch in the San Fernando valley has many oil wells and gas wells. One of the capped gas wells started to leak.
Complaints started to come out yet the democrats were very slow in responding. It turns out that Gov Jerry Brown had a sister on the board of the gas company.... Once revealed then the gas company acted.
BTW Brown had the taxpayers pay for a oil company to search land he and his sister inherited for oil and gas. None were found.
You can bet some democrat is making money from the train company or the tank car makers (Buffett owns 40%) or some other thing that we may find out later.
Aliso Canyon gas leak
https://www.dailynews.com/2018/10/22/3-years-since-the-aliso-canyon-gas-leak-almost-half-the-wells-in-the-storage-field-near-porter-ranch-are-shut-down/
This shows where the gas plume descended on the homes. There are thousands of homes there.
https://jewishhomela.com/2015/12/23/porter-ranch-gas-leak-no-clarity-no-solution/
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