Posted on 02/07/2023 7:01:29 PM PST by frithguild
“The western territories of Ukraine will be safe if they temporarily come under the protectorate of the Polish state.” Polish Prime Minister Matteusz Morawiecki.
I dont take a challenge of my statements to be an attack - a challenge is an opportunity to revisit a statement and learn missed details. On the other hand, those who hurl insults (not you) detract for their opportunity to persuade or learn. As far as dealing with then, I care not to cast pearls before swine.
Great map!
I doubt Poland really wants western Ukraine as an actual integral territory of its own, within new borders. What a headache that would be. Having to deal with a bunch of Ukrainians and multi-culti stuff. I get the strong impression they prefer being a pretty much mono-ethnic country. They’ve been there, done that, got the bloody T-shirt, and don’t want to go back to multi-culti. (And the EU elite looks down on Poland as well as Hungary for their liking being mono-ethnic.)
I have no doubt that if Western Ukraine somehow ends up as a NATO protectorate (similar to Kosovo) the Poles will want to take a lead position there (and benefit from all the reconstruction $, etc., too). And settle the refugees now sheltering in Poland there as well. And try to use it to move into a stronger and more powerful position re NATO and the EU, maybe punch above their weight a bit. Why shouldn’t they?
I agree that poor Ukraine has always had shifting borders, and has never been its very own country and is well ... problematic. It sits on serious and ancient fault lines. (The very name means “on the frontier/at the borderlands”). Its current borders could only have stood had remained neutral (on the Finnish or Austrian model) and served as a bridge between East and West (which could have made for prosperity done right). But the fragile new Ukraine would have had to carefully toe the line of neutrality, and resist the mighty forces seeking to use it to their own ends.
That was perhaps asking too much of a fragile new country with a very bloody history, one that spent the full 70 years under communism (that extra generation *does* make a big difference), had zero experience or history of governing itself, and had been the most corrupt in the old USSR. Add in the regional resentments and affiliations, and it’s almost a wonder it lasted as long as it did even without all the outside interference. (Although of course I believe the outside interference in Ukraine to be its main cause destruction.)
The reality is that Crimea and eastern Ukraine are of existential importance to Russia. Russia (and Putin) could live with a neutral Ukraine that leased them Sevastopol and did not impede through traffic or trade and did not belong to NATO or host American bases. They might not like it particularly, but willing to live with it, even willing to put up with Ukraine forming a trade relationship with the EU similar than Norway’s.
But no. It was not to be. So here we are. Fine kettle of fish we cooked.
I’ll be upfront. I think we should have listened to George Kennan and Angelo Codevilla instead of Wolfowitz (and that fool Fukuyama). I think we squandered our two golden decades as Sole Hegemon of the Planet. We should have switched from building up China (now to the point it’s our near-peer competitor — and intent on “Sino-forming the world” as Goldman aptly puts it) and been kinder to Russia (which can never be the peer competitor China can). And not tried to turn the Muslim World into a garden of flowers of democracy (what a joke) or pursued the crazy tack that making China rich would turn it into some sort of benign and friendly Jeffersonian democracy. Foolishly pushed and pushed a reluctant Russia into the arms of China.
Welcome to our new unipolar world. Watch what all China is up to on various fronts (including tech), and all we are not up to. I’ve said from the beginning of this tragic and idiotic Ukraine fiasco that whoever wins, China is the real winner.
As for your question about Scholz picking up the phone if they tell him it’s Putin calling about Königsberg (a question I find highly clever and amusing), I imagine his ears would perk up like a hound dog’s at the word “Königsberg” and be right on that call! Ya know, Kaliningrad does make for a messy map. And Germans do like things to be tidy.
Yes, the insult hurlers are not worth anyone’s time. They abound on the Ukraine-Russia threads (and the vax doomer threads, too). Which is why I usually stay off these Russian Ukraine threads. Lots of ignorant hotheads duking it out like a bunch of what the British call “football hooligans”. Once in a while, there’s a thread with reasonable and knowledgeable people.
Sad. FR used to be a place with lots of smart people from all over, people with various interesting life experiences, areas of knowledge. I used to learn so much here from so many. The insult butler’s have nothing to teach and no interest in learning anything, just Twitter settle slugfests. Not my cup of tea.
Anyway, glad to “meet” you here! Nice to see someone who is interested in the truth and polite and smart here.
Whoa! Talk about multi-culti! What a nightmare. That is a fantastic map. Here’s the link to the larger version, easier for me to read (click the arrow thingie top right to zoom in):
https://collections.lib.uwm.edu/digital/collection/agdm/id/2701/
Thanks for posting that! I am a map junkie, I confess it. This one is a great find. Of course five years later, the map changed again with Brest-Litovsk to the one I posted earlier.
Oops. I meant to type “Welcome to our new multipolar world.” The unipolar world, with us in the catbird seat, is passing fast away, if not already past.
Yes, not what it used to be. Not sure when I joined. 2003? FR is kind of the great grand daddy of social media
Your source is the press of Stalinist Belarus. Have you lost your mind along with your principles?
Google the quote. It’s fake. Man up. If your best argument is a tu quoque callacy, have the self respect not to make it
pro-Putin folks post lies like this post — fyi Morawiecki did not say what this lying post says
– Today, Ukraine still needs our support. Above all, however, Ukraine needs hope. This hope is born here in Poland, it is born in every Polish home where war refugees have been received, it is born in every diplomatic success, in every success that increases support for Ukraine on the international forum, said the Prime Minister.The most important thing at the moment, when it comes to support for fighting Ukraine, is help for war refugees. People who often had to leave their country in a great hurry. Poland and other countries of the free world have provided assistance to these millions of people from the beginning aid the head of the Chancellery of the Prime Minister, Marek Kuchciński. And he added: in the second topic, we would like to propose support for the Ukrainian state in the maintenance of the energy system. This issue contributes to the resilience of the Ukrainian state and society.
- The heroic fight of the Ukrainian nation saved not only Ukraine itself, but also woke up many countries of the free world from their geopolitical slumber - stressed the head of the Polish government, Mateusz Morawiecki. And he added: - The war in Ukraine is not a proof of Russia's strength. This war is a test of strength for the West. We face a clear choice: either the victory of Russia and the defeat of the West, or the renaissance of Western civilization. Without the support of countries such as Poland, Ukraine would already be one big ruin.
NO, it’s not true. Check the polish websites - even the anti-government ones like onet.pl or wyborcza.pl — they don’t report Morawiecki saying anything of the sort.
What part of "Tell me if I am wrong" do you fail to understand? I repeated a quote and ASKED YOU if it was said. I also recounted some of the difficulties I was having in seeking verification and asked about that as as well.
sheesh
They had no say on the borders, but they certainly had a say in the ethnic cleansing that followed.
Let’s talk “Ethnic Cleansing” shall we....
It is estimated that between 1.6 and 2 million people were expelled from their homes during the German occupation of Poland. The Nazi German organized expulsions—by themselves—affected 1,710,000 Poles directly. New estimates by Polish historians give the number of 2.478 million people expelled. Additionally, 2.5 to 3 million Poles were taken from Poland to Germany as slave labourers to support the Nazi war effort. These numbers do not include people arrested by the Germans and sent to Nazi concentration camps.
Paybacks are a bitch!
The quote comes from one source, your troll. It is made up. Try using a search engine and paying attention to names.
This is a tweet by a guy called Trollstoy88, and no such comment was made by polish PM. You have not just wasted our time. You have become a mindless tool in the hands of RuSSian propagandists. Well f**cking done.
What part of “Google search narrowed to News: No results found for ...” do you not understand?
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