I knew right then this wasn't going to turn out well.
Posted on 01/12/2023 6:11:34 PM PST by frithguild
All true - either side can argue their points until they come to blows. But when they took Nakita’s car, he stayed in Moscow. We (US) built the track (Maidan) and are giving away the cars (weapons). How is this justified?
Nothing in the infinite universe can excuse a country with immense military nuclear power to attack, invade and annex another tiny non-nuclear nation. And all this, while being protected by the UN, since Russia indeed can VETO its way out from any warcrimes, wars, or anything else it wishes to do.
This is pure madness. If Russias illegal invasion of a sovereign country is not stoped soon, China will be inspired to do the same and attack Taiwan... etc.. etc...
The Domino effect would end up wreaking havoc in Americas and the worlds economy. The American worker will be the first hit - as usual.
You are dead wrong in your analysis:
Ukraine IS a sovereign nation. Its borders are recognized internationally.
No one disputes that.
And Texas is not longer Mexican, it’s part of America today...
Should we let Mexicans take back Texas one day in case they become imperialistic like Russia?
Are we Neocons if we decide to forcefully push back on such hypothetical invasion of Texas?
Why no talk about Tibet you say? Well we have not signed to protect it.
The USA, UK and the Russia SIGNED the Budapest Memorandum in 1994.
Where they all agreed to protect Ukraine’s borders and integrity and from any kind of potential invasion from Russia. Period.
Yes, AMERICA signed that agreement, but in return demanded that Ukraine ship over to Russia the whole Ukrainian Nuclear arsenal they had at that time. And guess what, Ukraine honored that deal. THEY were fair play.
So... now you know WHY America and UK feel so obliged to honor at least somewhat... (since there are no US troops on the ground in Ukraine) the Budapest Memorandum Agreement.
This is an interesting formulation of the issue. It assumes the existence of sovereignty and polarizes anyone that engages in discussion into respect or disrespect categories. Disrespect is meant to trigger a disgust reflex and the desire for cleanliness or dare I say extermination. Propaganda 101 here, but very a clever question.
Perhaps, USA-FRANCE you might comment on the thesis of the writing that I posted for comment. Namely, Maidan was the most obvious coup in the history of coups. Immediately following the installation of the junta, Russians in the Donbass and Crimea expressed pretty clearly that they did not want to be ruled by Galicians that made Russian illegal and who cut off their water supply. So sovereignty has always been in issue.
Maybe you are more France than USA, because it should be clear to you that governments can change "When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another ...", etc., etc. So I would say the guys that signed that document disrespected sovereignty. You don't question what they did do you?
the UKRs would prolly say by the Holomodor...
taking the states and fighting to keep them is one thing, destroying UKR for the hell of it is another
for the most part, i stay out of this pissing contest
Transcarpathia was the only part of Ukraine to experience protracted Hungarian rule—nearly 1,000 years of it; Bukovina was the only part to experience both Moldavian and later modern Romanian rule; Bukovina and Galicia were the only regions to have experienced Austrian rule; large parts of the southern territories were carved out of the Crimean Khanate; signiicant portions of central Ukraine were once part of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania; and much of Ukraine’s formative historical experiences unfolded within Poland and Russia/USSR. The border between the latter states has shifted over time, and some parts of Ukraine have lived much longer under Poland (Galicia: 1386–1772, 1918–39) and others much longer under Russia and its Soviet successor (the Hetmanate and Sloboda Ukraine: since the mid-17th century until independence in 1991, interrupted by the German occupation of 1941–43). Of course, Crimea was not included in the Ukrainian SSR until 1954 and had previously been in the Crimean Khanate.
“Two leaders of the far-right Svoboda party also stated in separate interviews that a Western government representative told them”
And that has been independently verified and confirmed by whom, and when??? Never is my guess, though I am sure the same thing, without that further verification has been repeated and repeated in various venues, like a circle of repeating each other stands in for confirmation, as long as you believe it.
“Maidan was the most obvious coup in the history of coups. Immediately following the installation of the junta.”
You got that backwards:
The “junta” you are talking about was actually already in place and represented by the pro Russian puppet Mr. Viktor Yanukovych.
Viktor Yanukovych was like General Pétain during WWII in France. He became Socialist-Germany’s puppet. He took his orders from Berlin, not from Paris.
The French didn’t like that, I can tell you.
Viktor Yanukovych took his orders from Moscow, not Kiev.
No wonder the Ukrainians started their Maidan Revolution.
They want to rule in their own country. Nothing wrong about that.
Ukraine IS a sovereign nation. Its borders are recognized internationally.
No one disputes that. Russia for Russians. Ukraine for Ukraininans.
Lets respect borders. We like borders in America don’t we? Heck, I even adore big solid walls to protect us from invasions.
Also:
The USA, UK and the Russia SIGNED the Budapest Memorandum in 1994.
Where they all agreed to protect Ukraine’s borders and integrity and from any kind of potential invasion from Russia.
AMERICA signed that agreement, but in return demanded that Ukraine ship over to Russia the whole Ukrainian Nuclear arsenal they had at that time.
Ukraine honored that deal. THEY were fair play.
Today, America and UK feel obliged to honor at least somewhat... (since there are no US troops on the ground in Ukraine) the Budapest Memorandum Agreement by sending them defensive weapons.
I couldn’t resist the Mazepin thing
You are dead wrong in your analysis. The Ukraine is a puppet state of America and its people are being sacrifice for the Military Industrial Complex that Eisenhower warned us about.
Totalitarian governments always use war and foreign enemies to distract the their populations from government failures and crimes at home. It is a disgusting flaw of humanity and idiots that cheer it on are beneath contempt.
You cheer on this proxy war farce 5000 miles away overseas while Americans are attacked and enslaved at home. Neocons and communists are pure scum.
I knew right then this wasn't going to turn out well.
Our understanding of sovereigny, legitimacy, the role of elections and the like don't work respected. In mercantile based governments than in post Mongul systems, where national borders have changed as often as they have in what has been called Ukraine for the last 100 years. What little the US learned from the War to End All Wars has been forgotten, while the AFU is today using some of the trenches dug in WWI.
This is far more complicated than you make out.
The West backed Maidan because Russia was destabilising the region - attempting to assassinate Yanukovych’s rival and invading Georgia pre-dated any interference by the USA.
Putin kept stating a red line on Ukraine joining NATO. But there was another far more codified red line, enshrined in the Helsinki Accords of 1975 THEN the Belovezh Accords THEN the UN Charter recognitions THEN the Budapest Memorandum.
That red line was, Russia and Europe has for 47 years agreed on a principle of inviolable borders which was further guaranteed by Russia and the independent republics after the dissolution of the USSR.
By wilfully pretending that 47 years of multiple binding assurances FROM RUSSIA ITSELF carry less weight than Putin’s personal Duginist butt-hurt, it’s Russia that dragged Europe into a totally unnecessary conflict.
By wilfully violating Budapest, nonstop since 2008, Russia enabled Ukraine to call on the support of Belarus, Khazakstan, the USA and United Kingdom.
What the Putinistas completely duck is, Budapest was in effect a localised miniature version of the NATO charter which quite obviously had an article 5 equivalent.
If any participant from the ex-Soviet republics giving nukes to Russia got invaded it could call on the others AND RUSSIA AND THE USA AND THE UK to intervene.
Russia has only itself to blame for our involvement. Putin knew all along that the ONLY reason we didn’t go in much earlier when Russia was trying to turn Yanukovych into the new Lukashenko is, Ukraine didn’t invoke its fundamental right to request assistance from us to deal with Russia’s violations.
Ukraine on Fire lays this all out very well.
You can hear Victoria Nuland on the phone with the US ambassador deciding who to appoint as Ukraine’s prime minister....in 2014.
The Neocons have been running things in Ukraine for over a decade. Putin didn’t just wake up in a bad mood one morning as the corporate media would like for you to believe.
Old news. The BBC posted the transcript of the phone calls at the time AND pointed out it demonstrated a divergence of approach between Europe and the USA.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26079957
Unlike Oliver Stone, though, the BBC also reported on conversations on the Russian side, proving they had every intention of conducting (more) interference in Ukrainian sovereignty - so the USA was behaving no more badly than Russia.
What is true, however, is that some on this thread think they are patriots, and righteous ones at that, when in reality they are nothing more then useful idiots for evil.
It's worthless to try & educate any of you because you all are know it all individuals who know nothing in reality. That is why you all are nothing more than useful idiots.
What is it exactly that you do not understand about being 31.6 trillion in debt (and rapidly growing), along with an additional 173.6 trillion unfunded liabilities, that prevents you from seeing that the U.S. can no longer afford to protect the world?
What is it with you imbeciles that prohibits you from understanding that continued weakening of ourselves puts us in grave danger, which in turn puts the whole world in jeopardy? Do you honestly believe that a One World Government is the solution? I pity you if that is your belief, because the reality will be an unpleasant shock to you.
What is it about you gullible people that makes it impossible for you to understand priorities, and that if you ignore the priorities the whole world succumbs to evil?
Madison said:
Of all the evils to public liberty, war is perhaps the most to be dreaded, because it comprises and develops every other. War is the patent of armies; from these proceed debts and taxes. And armies, and debts, and taxes, are the known instruments for bringing the many under the dominion of the few.
Washington dedicates a large part of his farewell address to discussing foreign relations and the dangers of permanent alliances between the United States and foreign nations, which he views as foreign entanglements. He advocates a policy of good faith and justice towards all nations, again making reference to proper behavior based upon religious doctrine and morality. He urges the American people to avoid long-term friendly relations or rivalries with any nation, arguing that attachments with or animosity toward other nations will only cloud the government's judgment in its foreign policy. He argues that longstanding poor relations will only lead to unnecessary wars due to a tendency to blow minor offenses out of proportion when committed by nations viewed as enemies of the United States. He continues this argument by claiming that alliances are likely to draw the United States into wars that have no justification and no benefit to the country beyond simply defending the favored nation. Alliances, he warns, often lead to poor relations with nations who feel that they are not being treated as well as America's allies, and threaten to influence the American government into making decisions based upon the will of their allies instead of the will of the American people.
"Real patriots", he warns, who "resist the intrigues" of foreign nations may find themselves "suspected and odious" in the eyes of others, yet he urges the people to stand firm against such influences all the same. He portrays those who attempt to further such foreign interests as becoming the "tools and dupes" of those nations, stealing the applause and praise of their country away from the "real patriots" while actually working to "surrender" American interests to foreign nations.
Washington goes on to urge the American people to take advantage of their isolated position in the world, and to avoid attachments and entanglements in foreign affairs, especially those of Europe, which he argues have little or nothing to do with the interests of America. He argues that it makes no sense for the American people to become embroiled in European affairs when their isolated position and unity allow them to remain neutral and focus on their own affairs. He argues that the country should avoid permanent alliances with all foreign nations, although temporary alliances during times of extreme danger may be necessary. He states that current treaties should be honored but not extended.
Washington wraps up his foreign policy stance by advocating free trade with all nations, arguing that trade links should be established naturally and the role of the government should be limited to ensuring stable trade, defending the rights of American merchants and any provisions necessary to ensure the conventional rules of trade.
These are two men who understood:
Live Free or Die.
Long live true Patriotism and Liberty.
far more than you ever will.
Lets stop the spread of Woke, Communism and the Soviet Union 2.0 (and their Islamic allies: Iran and Chechnya)
You aren't stopping anything, and unfortunately you are apparently unaware who is actually promoting those very things.
Is it Russia or even Islam? Show me where either entity is promoting that nonsense. You can't because they don't, but I sure see a lot of promoting of that nonsense here in the U.S. and other former western aligned societies that once actually believed in freedom, but now only give it lip service as they undermine it relentlessly.
Wake up, it's you and the rest of you cheerleaders who are supporting evil.
Hijacked?
On a thread called “The hidden origin of the escalating Ukraine-Russian conflict-The Maidan massacre”
The Maidan massacre has a predecessor, and that’s called Russian interference with Ukraine.
Every defense of Russian aggression regarding Ukraine thinks the entire history started in 2014, making their actions today justified.
My remark was pointing this out.
I don’t know what or who YOU endorse.
How convenient, you didn’t answer anything about what I wrote.
You don’t say anything about the BUDAPEST MEMORANDUM which America signed with Russia, UK and Ukraine in order to protect Ukraines independence and sovereignty against any attack from Russia. In return for its protection of Ukraine, America demanded that Ukraine got rid of its nuclear arsenal and be shipped to Russia for safekeeping. Ukraine trusted America and respected their part of the deal! They gave all the nuclear weapons to Russia. They did it.
So why shouldn’t America respect its part of the deal?? Why?
Such high level Internationally SIGNED agreements MUST be respected - otherwise WHY would they be signed in the first place?
It would be evil to cheat - in not respecting such a signature. Right?
Especially as Ukraine got rid of all its nuclear arsenal dramatically weakening itself militarily.
You say I am supporting “EVIL” because I want countries to respect others borders? Is it “EVIL” for a sovereign nation to remain sovereign? Really?
Why don’t you denounce RUSSIA as Evil? THEY are the brutal invaders leveling entire villages and towns in Ukraine. Right ?
Is Ukraine bombarding civilian electrical infrastructure and water supply in Russia like Russia does in Ukraine ? It’s a resounding NO, Ukraine doesn’t do that.
Why don’t you denounce invaders?
Why do you like Invaders?
Russia is being helped by the world’s most extreme radical Islamic countries like IRAN and Chechnya. They are cobelligerent in this war. And North Korea is arming the Wagner mercenaries.
Isn’t all this EVIL to you ? They are ALL our traditional enemies, and they are all bonding together. Are you happy about that?
Even Reagan said many times Russia / Soviet Union 1.0 was an “evil empire”. And we know now why he said that.
Now in essence we have Russia / Soviets Union 2.0 AGAIN invading AND annexing parts of Europe.
Why oh why... don’t you condemn this horrible invasion?
I simply can’t understand how your neural connections are wired. It’s a mystery to me.
lol...
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