How did electric vehicles handle America's Arctic blast?

wnd.com ^ | 1/2/2023 1146 hrs est | Ross Pomeroy

[rktman]

There are now an estimated 1.7 million electric vehicles (EVs) on U.S. roads, compared to roughly 400,000 in spring 2018. That means that a lot more Americans are experiencing the joys and pitfalls of EV ownership, from silent, swift acceleration and emission-free driving on the positive side to slower fueling times and shorter driving ranges on the negative side.

More Americans are also learning that frigid temperatures affect EVs differently than internal combustion engine (ICE) vehicles, chiefly by cutting into their driving range to a greater extent. While a typical ICE vehicle might have its range reduced by 15% to 25% in below-freezing temperatures, an EV's range will be slashed 20% to 50% depending upon driving speed, temperature, and interior climate preferences. Combustion reactions occur more inefficiently at colder temperatures, accounting for the range decline in ICE vehicles. But cold slows the physical and chemical reactions in EV batteries to a larger degree, limiting the energy and power the battery can deliver to the motors. Moreover, while ICE vehicles utilize otherwise wasted heat from the engine to warm car interiors in winter, EVs use electric heaters to perform much of the climate control, further draining the already hamstrung battery.

[Yo-Yo]

Sorry, but I'm not going to repost what I've already posted in this thread just for your convenience. It's right above this post if you weren't too lazy to scroll up.

If you did, however, you'd find that I've already covered your points before you even raised them with others.

[fireman15]

It's right above this post if you weren't too lazy to scroll up.

I looked through every post that you left in this thread. You left a Youtube link in post #2, and the following link in post #35.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/electric-vehicle-heat-pumps-improve-range-hot-weather/

This link does not provide much if any additional insight to anyone who has even the most cursory familiarity with this type of technology. The fact that you apparently believe that it is an informative article doesn't reflect well on your depth of knowledge.

I have tools, supplies, knowledge and experience working with HVAC equipment in vehicles and structures. I assumed that I was conversing with someone with a similar background. It is always disappointing to find out that one is having their time wasted by someone who seems to be misrepresenting themself.

[GOPJ]

And since my two inverters together put out 16kW at a time (when in off-grid mode, but they put out 18kW when the grid power is up), virtually all of my circuits are on the "critical load" panel. Basically, almost my entire house can be powered when the grid is down, including the appliances. Just not all on at the same time (I can't exceed 16kW, so I can't charge my EV at full speed while in the hot tub with the jets on high while the clothes dryer is on high, etc.)

That's similar to a 'whole house generator' - where you have to pick and choose what you're going to run. The advantage your system has is flexibility - you're moving things around in real time. I'm impressed Tell it Right. Sell the total concept to an honest company and become the next billionaire.

[ViLaLuz]

Electric vehicles are not emission free when the battery is charged. The batteries are made from earth- destroying lithium mines by child slaves and exploited adults. But that’s ok when promoting UN 2030 and 2040, according to WEF antichrist.

[Hillarys Gate Cult]

I also want to see performance of such and it’s battery life. Are the battery packs new, at midlife, or swap out soon. I’m sure they can’t be the same.

Every charging station I’ve ever seen doesn’t seem to be snowplow friendly. How do they clear them of snow?

[Fresh Wind]

What about emission-free charging?

[BlackbirdSST]

What about emission-free charging?

Not.Gonna.Happen.

[Yo-Yo]

Sorry, I didn't know I was talking to a home heating HVAC technician.

https://www.denso.com/global/en/business/products-and-services/mobility/pick-up/hpacs/

https://www.hyundaimotorgroup.com/story/CONT0000000000002995

https://www.volkswagen.co.uk/en/electric-and-hybrid/software-and-technology/id-technology/heat-pump.html

https://www.sae.org/news/2021/03/heat-pump-technology-an-ev-game-changer

[Tell It Right]

Thanks. Again, you have to do your homework to make it work well. You can’t do like the libs and throw a few solar panels onto the roof that do nothing more than virtue signal. For features like we discussed it mainly comes down to researching the inverter(s) you’ll use. A solar contractor is supposed to do all of this research for you. But I did the research on my own first so that later when I called the solar installers I knew which ones were scamming me and which ones were honest.

[fireman15]

Thank you for making the effort to post links to promotional material from various manufacturers, etc... They contain impressive illustrations and animations that young people have come to expect from these types of advertisements.

Wow, that is impressive looking isn't it? Or how about this one?

If only Doc Brown had these types of animation tools available to him... I am pretty sure that a DeLorean would be parked in every driveway.

From one of your links:

"Heat Pump is an efficient technology using heat source from ambient air. Heat Pump can generate large thermal energy with little electric energy. Electric energy saving for cabin heating can extend driving range of Battery Electric Vehicle or Plug-in Hybrid Electric Vehicle."

What a revelation! I am sure that no one here had ever heard about that before.

And look how smart these Korean guys look!

But didn't those Germans come up with a nice picture...

What was the point of the last link that you posted to a training facility? It is from March of 2021 and says that heat pumps are a game changer for EVs... OK. None of the info you linked to provided any information about the topic that the thread was supposedly based on... how did the EV fleet hold up under severe cold conditions, or even how did heat pumps built into them fare.

You don't know much if anything about the topic, but you are blissfully unaware of what you do not know. The Dunning-Kruger effect effect occurs when a person’s lack of knowledge and skills in a certain area cause them to overestimate their own competence.

[Yo-Yo]

The "Dunning-Kruger effect effect?" Nice Engrish.

If you consider a link to a component manufacturer (Denso,) an automobile manufacturer (Hyundai and Volkswagen) and a professional society (SAE) to be "promotional material," then yeah, I guess so.

To recap, you said in your Post 42 "Unless it is extremely cold outside... then they basically don't work. This is why heat pumps in places where it gets cold frequently are backed up by conventional heating. It sounds like whoever tutored you on this subject left out a minor detail or two."

However, I said in my Post 29 (posted prior to your snarky comment) "They still work more efficiently than resistance heat down to about 15°F. Below that then resistance heating provides additional heat, just like home heat pumps."

Our exchanges after that is just your continued failed attempts to be condescending.

[fireman15]

Basically, almost my entire house can be powered when the grid is down, including the appliances. Just not all on at the same time.

You have a much more advanced system than ours. But we live in the foothills and have frequent windstorms which knock out our power. Most of the time it comes back on the same day, but occasionally it will be off for a week or more. All of our neighbors have generators. Fortunately, we have natural gas to the house, and I converted our generator to use it years ago.

So, it is still a similar situation for us. When the power goes out we have to limit how many high wattage devices that we use at the same time and we also have to pay attention to which side of the 240v circuit that they are running on. We have metering that allows us to monitor this.

We are so used to the routine that we do not have to think about our usage very much. Typically, if someone turns on a toaster, microwave, or hair dryer that are on a side of the circuit that is already close to the limit... the generator starts to bog down and we turn the offending device off and then go turn off something else before starting it back up again. Occasionally, a breaker will flip which is a little more inconvenient.

Some of our neighbors who have the approximately the same load that we do are using generators twice as large as ours. This means that they can get away with a more asymmetric load than we can, but it also means that their gas usage is typically 50% or more greater than ours during a power outage. This hardly matters during an outage that doesn't last very long, but if you are using a generator for a couple weeks it can add up to quite a bit more consumption.

[fireman15]

They still work more efficiently than resistance heat down to about 15°F.

Because you seem to have no actual experience at all in this area you still do not realize after multiple people tried to correct you... that very few heat pumps in use even these days work well at temperatures below 40°F. Get below freezing and most basically do nothing at all. It depends on the refrigerant and the pressures being used. Yet you are very impressed with sales literature filled with typical greenie nonsense complete with meaningless animations. You have contributed absolutely nothing that has made any meaningful point in this entire thread. I don't know whether to laugh or cry when thinking about you, but thanks for catching a repeated word from my last post to you. It does prove that you are capable of reading even if comprehension is not one of your strong suits.

[Tell It Right]

Sounds like you have a good routine going.

And don't forget other energy improvements to the house. My solar is good, but probably as important are the insulation we added, replacing my old A/C and gas furnace with a variable speed heat pump, and replacing my old gas water heater with a hybrid water heater. When I post that my energy project will pay for itself in about 10-11 years, I include those costs as well as the extra cost for an EV (vs buying my wife another used ICE crossover since I was about to have to replace her car anyway).

To make solar efficient you have to think like an engineer and strengthen all of the weak links and also pick your battles. For example, where I live when it's cloudy and rainy for multiple days those tend to also be days with moderate temperatures. In other words, even though I have to pull from the grid on those days it's not much because I don't need a lot of power to cool or heat the home when the outdoor temperature is mild. But most of the days it's really hot or really cold (cold for Alabama) tend to be sunny days, which means lots of free power to handle the high power consumption.

Once I realized that I realized that solar would do most of what I need it to do and my budget would be hampered only a little by the Dims' stupid energy policies (the little I have to buy from the grid).

[Yo-Yo]

Get below freezing and most basically do nothing at all. It depends on the refrigerant and the pressures being used.

Hence the link to the Denso scroll compressor with gas injection that allows it to work down to a claimed 10°C below freezing, or approximately 15°F for the HVAC technicians in the audience.

I do not question your expertise in home or commercial HVAC and Heat Pump applications, but residential/commercial and automotive heat pump installations are not identical.

If you read the "advertising" from Hyundai, you would see that their heat pump is designed to pull heat from the air, from the battery, and/or from the motor and motor controller, whichever is optimal at any one point in time. On a zero degree F morning, resistance heating will be used to warm the battery. Once the vehicle is in motion, the motor controller and the motor will be providing heat that can be used by a heat pump for cabin heat, even if the outside air temperature is still far below the working limit of the heat pump.

If the temp is above the break-even point, like 20°F, then the heat pump can be used to preheat the battery pack more efficiently than resistance heating can.

I don't understand why you are being so obtuse about heat pumps in electric vehicles. They clearly and demonstrably are being use in EVs, so why are you continuing to try to prove that they're useless and impractical?

[fireman15]

If the temp is above the break-even point, like 20°F, then the heat pump can be used to preheat the battery pack more efficiently than resistance heating can.

No electric vehicles that I am aware of use heat pumps to warm up battery packs in sub-freezing temperatures. None of the documentation that you have provided demonstrates that any models are currently using heat pumps to do this. Show us specs where a manufacturer is claiming to use a heat pump for this application in one of their vehicles. Can you even find us a Youtube video where an owner is claiming that a heat pump is being used to preheat the battery at a charging station in sub-freezing temperatures?

I am not the one who is being "obtuse" in this discussion. Many have tried to correct you, but you persist in arguing about something that you have provided ZERO documentation for.

And yes, I have serviced units in vehicles and homes and also including refrigerators and freezers. I have equipment, tools, knowledge and experience, something which you unfortunately do not seem to have. You simply do not seem to understand the limitations of heating and cooling equipment and their application in this case.

[Yo-Yo]

No electric vehicles that I am aware of use heat pumps to warm up battery packs in sub-freezing temperatures.

Well, that's it then. I'm wrong. When I show you a heat pump that can work down to 15°F, to you it doesn't exist so I'm wrong.

Even when I concede (before your first post to me no less) that below that temperature then resistance heating is required, to you I've made no such concession so I'm wrong.

You win.

https://www.motorbiscuit.com/heat-pumps-improve-electric-vehicle-driving-range-winter-temperatures/

EV batteries are sensitive equipment, and they need to be kept at a certain temperature in order for the EV to run well. Most EVs will consume power to heat up its battery, and as such, heat pumps can help out here too. In fact, efficient heat pump designs can warm up the EV’s battery without spending that much power, as it instead can use waste-energy from the EV’s motor.

On top of that, the temperature of an EV battery can affect how fast it charges. In order to speed up the charging process, some automakers precondition their batteries so that they will hit the optimal charging temperatures and deliver a fast charging experience. Once again, this is another area where heat pumps can play a role, as they can heat up an EV’s battery and precondition it for the optimal charging temperature.

[steve86]

I did not watch the Tyler video nor was especially involved in the topic. But I have to wonder: if the battery pack failed soon after the disappointing range tests, I have to wonder if the pack was defective from the beginning and progressively failing. Thus possibly not representative of the actual performance of the model. Ok, I see you speculated it might partially explain his issues, same thing.

[fireman15]

Sounds like you have a good routine going.

We have lived in this house for 25 years. We already had a 5KW generator that we had used at another house and at our airplane hangar. We perfected our system as time went on. You start out thinking that you know all that you need to and then you discover things over the years that make everything work a lot easier. When you try to explain how it works to someone who is looking at generators, they almost always ignore everything that you tell them. I am sure that the same type of phenomena occurs when you try to share what you know about owning a solar system.

[fireman15]

You win.

No, when you are trying to discuss a topic with someone who tries to “win” an argument with misquotes, mischaracterizations, and playing the victim you don't really win.

You still don't even understand the points that I was trying to make or why I was trying to make them... A “heat pump” could no doubt be designed to extract the “heat” from liquid nitrogen. Whether it would be practical for anything is another matter.

The discussion in this thread was about how well EVs held up in the recent cold spell. There is no doubt that heat pumps will play a role in increasing efficiency of EVs over time, but they certainly had little effect on the performance of EVs in the recent cold spell. You were asked repeatedly to provide specifics to back up your claims but never provided any relevant info.