Posted on 10/21/2022 10:33:59 AM PDT by hardspunned
I never thought Trump was crushing against Ukraine in the context of Ukraine v. Russia. My take on it was that he had concerns about the relationship between Ukraine and their financial corruption regarding laundering money for deep state. There was special concern about Ukraine’s involvement with the Biden Crime Family.
Sure, but Americans are the leaders because we contribute the most.
The world works better when we lead.
Americans will not like the world where madman Putin and the Xi-snake can roam and invade at will.
SmokingJoe: "1. We did NOT promise to defend Ukraine, pay for all their arms and weapons for free and essentially pay for their entire domestic bills and budget like Zelensky is demanding. That's NUTS.*
We certainly did guaranty Ukraine's sovereignty.
Of course it would have been MUCH cheaper just to deter madman Putin, as Pres. Trump did.
But when weakness and stupidity rob deterence of its power, then, sadly, we have to do what it takes, as we promised.
SmokingJoe: "2. Dementia Joe's surrender in Afghanistan to the Taliban after 20 years of fighting was terrible, yes."
One of the worst parts of it is, that it provoked madman Putin to think, now is the best chance he'll ever have to do what he wants to Ukraine.
SmokingJoe: "3. There is no “long term harm” to America from Ukraine signing a peace deal with Russia now, instead of putting the whole world at risk of nuclear war.
Ukraine is not that important for the fate of humanity tpo dumped into the garbage for."
There is huge long term harm to letting madman Putin get what he wants through naked aggression.
That harm will come to Taiwan and any other small countries threatened by crazy dictators.
SmokingJoe: "And I have lived in Europe before. Europeans in general do NOT consider themselves Americans in any way. The have looked down in Americans for a very long time."
Regardless of what some Europeans may or may not think of us, the NATO alliance makes us "one country" for defense purposes.
Your rants against NATO do not change that.
SmokingJoe: "Ukraine was invaded, yes.
But was it totally unprovoked?
Nope."
Totally unprovoked in any sane sense.
SmokingJoe: "You think America for example, would sit idly by if Russia was making moves to build a military base in Mexico?
How'd Nikita Khrushchev’s Cuban missile build up go for example?"
Cuba is a good example -- what did we do?
First, there were actual missiles in Cuba, not just some discussions about MAYBE an alliance.
Second, we didn't invade Cuba, instead we dealt directly with the Soviets.
The reason is, unlike madman Putin who wants to annex Ukraine, we only wanted Soviet missiles out of Cuba.
As for Russian bases near us, they are/were in Cuba for many decades, and what did we do about it?
Effectively nothing.
And you compare madman Putin to us? Why?
So why do we have to contribute the most to anything?
The world works better when we lead.
Like in Afghanistan and Iraq and Vietnam?
Americans will not like the world where madman Putin and the Xi-snake can roam and invade at will.
Americans will be just fine whether Putin occupies Ukraine or not.
The Soviet Union occupied Ukraine for decades with a largely peaceful Easter Eastern Europe.
The only wars we were involved in after WW II ere mostly stupid wars we started in Vietnam, Korea etc etc. Wars which like Ukraine, have nothing to do with us.
Nope.
Of course it would have been MUCH cheaper just to deter madman Putin, as Pres. Trump did.
But when weakness and stupidity rob deterence of its power, then, sadly, we have to do what it takes, as we promised.
Better if Dementia had not been chased out of Afghanistan in shame by a bunch of Taliban savages.
But that's done.
We don't have to compensate for it by getting involved in yet another bloody war in Ukraine.
One of the worst parts of it is, that it provoked madman Putin to think, now is the best chance he'll ever have to do what he wants to Ukraine.
There are always stronger countries that invade weaker countries throughout the world, throughout history.
Check on how many wars there have been in Africa, Asia, South America etc after WW2. Hundreds.
America did not have to get involved in any of these wars, just like we don't have to get involved in Ukraine.
There is huge long term harm to letting madman Putin get what he wants through naked aggression.
That harm will come to Taiwan and any other small countries threatened by crazy dictators.
China will inevitably take over Taiwan as their economy/GDP overtakes that of America and they become far stronger than they are now.
Ukraine will have little effect on China no matter what the results are.
Cuba is a good example — what did we do?
First, there were actual missiles in Cuba, not just some discussions about MAYBE an alliance.
The Soviet nuclear missiles were in the process of getting installed.
Second, we didn't invade Cuba, instead we dealt directly with the Soviets.
We sent warships and destroyers to BLAOKADE Cuba, including blockading Soviet warships from entering Cuba. That's an act of war against the Soviets.
The reason is, unlike madman Putin who wants to annex Ukraine, we only wanted Soviet missiles out of Cuba.
Yes, but if the Soviets had not turned back their warships, there’d have been a nasty nuclear war.
When you think of it, there are plenty of Soviet nuclear submarines patrolling US shores anyways, and the Soviets did not actually need nuclear missiles stationed in Cuba.
Good thing Nikita Khrushchev came to his senses and backed down.
And 99% of the money ends up in George Soros’ and the Biden Crime Family’s pockets.
SmokingJoe: "Like in Afghanistan and Iraq and Vietnam?"
The world is the whole world, all 195 countries, most relatively small & weak, easily aggressed on & victimized by bigger, more powerful dictators such as madman Putin and Xi-snake.
American leadership is, for some reason, called "the rules-based order" and it has kept the general peace since WWII with ever growing prosperity & technology.
A collapse of American leadership will not be a good thing for the world, or for us.
SmokingJoe: "Americans will be just fine whether Putin occupies Ukraine or not.
The Soviet Union occupied Ukraine for decades with a largely peaceful Easter Eastern Europe"
Soviets conquered, enslaved and exterminated millions of Ukrainians before WWII, putting Stalin & Hitler in the same class as mass murderers.
After the war Soviets conquered & occupied Eastern Europe while threatening Western Europe and the world with nukes & massive tank armies.
When the Soviet Empire collapsed Russians, Brits and Americans promised to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, in exchange for nukes, a promise madman Putin broke by invading in 2014 while the US & Britain twiddled our thumbs.
Today Putin is again invading, but this time pretty much the whole world supports Ukraine's fight for freedom & independence from madman's tyranny.
SmokingJoe: "The only wars we were involved in after WW II ere mostly stupid wars we started in Vietnam, Korea etc etc. Wars which like Ukraine, have nothing to do with us."
Only a dedicated Russian propagandist would claim the US "started" wars in Korea & Vietnam, comrad.
In fact, both those were fought in defense against Communosts' invasions.
Korea was ended successfully by a Republican president, while Vietnam was ended disastrously by a Democrat Congress.
In Europe the US won the Cold War, freeing tens of millions in Eastern Europe.
The "War on Terror" ended badly in Iraq & Afghanistan, but when was the last 9/11 level attack on us?
Today the US benefits hugely economically, militarily & even culturally from our allies in Europe, Korea, Japan & Taiwan.
Not so much from Vietnam, Iraq & Afghanistan.
Way to go Bro. You put the neo isolationist in his place....... 1935 or maybe 1936.
Nothing new about any of that.
Been part of humanity for as long as we’ve had human societies/nations.
Its not up to America to acquire debts of a massive $31 Trillion supporting wars in far away nations that we've got little to do with.
American leadership is, for some reason, called “the rules-based order” and it has kept the general peace since WWII with ever growing prosperity & technology.
A collapse of American leadership will not be a good thing for the world, or for us.
American “leadership” is only called upon when foreign countries get themselves into deep sh*t, and need free money from America the ever ready suckers.
We don't need that kind of “leadership”. Its of no use to us.
“Maybe the correct lesson of 911 was to not allow entry to our nation of peoples from countries that hate us.”
Bingo.
L
Nothing new about any of that.
Europeans have been fighting and slaughtering each other for hundreds if not thousands of years, even before America existed.
Why should America work themselves into huge debts to save yet another Europeans country?
Let the Europeans sort out their own mess for a change.
When the Soviet Empire collapsed Russians, Brits and Americans promised to protect Ukraine's sovereignty, in exchange for nukes, a promise madman Putin broke by invading in 2014 while the US & Britain twiddled our thumbs.
Nope.
We are not protecting Ukraine sovereignty.
Its not our business.
Protect your own sovereignty.
Today Putin is again invading, but this time pretty much the whole world supports Ukraine's fight for freedom & independence from madman's tyranny.
Almost all countries in Asia and Africa and even our own next door neighbor, Mexico, have REFUSED to impose any sanctions on Russia,
You need to listen to that.
Neither of the two were were our bossiness. Total waste of lives and money.
As it turns out, even the mighty Soviet Union collapsed, without us firing a shot.
After the Soviet collapse, Vietnam and Korea would be more or less the same as they are now if we hadn't fought those wars and lost tens and thousands of our youth and hundreds of billions of dollars.
Today the US benefits hugely economically, militarily & even culturally from our allies in Europe, Korea, Japan & Taiwan.
How so?
We don't need to fight bloody wars and spend Trillions of dollars to have cultural exchanges.
And most of the economic growth in America have come from the technology sector in Silicon Valley. Got nothing to do with wars in Vietnam and Korea or Europe.
So that’s Trump’s take. The Ukrainian government had been corrupted by, you say Biden, I say Obama/Soros. Sure the Biden crime family gathered up as much graft as possible. The Bidens did this all over the world, China, Iraq, USA, everywhere. Obama ran the US administration then, he runs it now. Obama ran the Uke government in his second term, he ran Uke government during Trump’s administration (as evidenced by the “impeachment” circus, Obama’s entire Uke/DC corrupting crew were on parade), he controls it today. There’s no denying Obama’s world wide globalist machinations. The cooperative relationship between Soros and Obama is beyond question. If that’s Trump’s concern what do you think you think the Russians were seeing? Of course, Putin couldn’t allow Obama’s personal strike force, NATO, to set up camp on his border, 300 flat miles from Moscow. Remember, Obama Globalist Inc. has been preaching Moscow regime change for years. Putin might be a bloodthirsty, murdering KGB thug but he’s not blind to the Obama/Soros/NATO threat to Russia in Ukraine. If I were the Russian leader under those circumstances, I would have reacted the same way. After warning after warning after ignored warning, Putin countered Obama’s gambit. I wish the hell someone would step up against the Obama regime in this country.
SmokingJoe: "Nope."
The proof is, Ukrainians believed our promises were strong enough to convince them to hand over their nukes to Russia.
That was one h*ll of a promise!
By stark contrast, there was never a promise not to expand NATO into Eastern Europe.
SmokingJoe: "We don't have to compensate for it by getting involved in yet another bloody war in Ukraine."
Our defeat in Afghanistan helped provoke madman Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
And our defeat in Ukraine will help provoke the Xi-snake to invade Taiwan.
And our loss of Taiwan will encourage who else to try the luck?
Little Kim in Korea?
Maybe madman Putin in the Baltics?
What about maniacal Muhlas in Iran against their Suni or Jewish enemies?
You see, the problem with losing is, it quickly becomes habit forming, then more addictive than fentenyl.
Losing kills, like poison, don't do it.
SmokingJoe: "There are always stronger countries that invade weaker countries throughout the world, throughout history.
Check on how many wars there have been in Africa, Asia, South America etc after WW2. Hundreds."
And how many of those was our CIA accused of starting or influencing one side or another?
Many.
And the end result is what?
Almost no major changes in countries boundaries caused by invasion since WWII.
American leadership matters, a lot.
SmokingJoe: "China will inevitably take over Taiwan as their economy/GDP overtakes that of America and they become far stronger than they are now.
Ukraine will have little effect on China no matter what the results are."
So now we are to surrender Taiwan too, without a fight?
My goodness you truly do hate America, don't you?
You want to restore Russia and China to super-duper power status and just let them rule over anybody they want, right?
Yeah, that's not going to work out well, not now, not ever.
For one thing, very quickly every smaller country will soon have their own nukes, and some will use them, for good reasons or not.
I promise you, you will not like that.
SmokingJoe: "We sent warships and destroyers to BLAOKADE Cuba, including blockading Soviet warships from entering Cuba.
That's an act of war against the Soviets.
No more so than Stalin's 1948-9 Berlin Blockaid was an act of war against Americans, Brits & French.
And my point is, unlike madman Putin, we didn't invade Cuba or use Soviet missiles as our excuse to ANNEX Cuba, did we?
SmokingJoe: "Good thing Nikita Khrushchev came to his senses and backed down."
Well...except that he didn't really "back down".
He simply traded Soviet missiles in Cuba for some American missiles in Turkey.
It was a fair trade, a "win-win" you might even say.
Only the negotiating drama was a bit over the top.
Ukraine and other Soviet republics did not have to hand over their nukes to anybody.
It was up to them
South Africa gave up their nukes to the US when Mandela took over and they still haven't called out to America to go defend them from anybody.
Let Ukraine ans Europe take care of their own problems.
Our defeat in Afghanistan helped provoke madman Putin's invasion of Ukraine.
And our defeat in Ukraine will help provoke the Xi-snake to invade Taiwan.
And our loss of Taiwan will encourage who else to try the luck?
Again, China will invade and take over Taiwan when their economy inevitably overtakes that of the US and they are stronger militarily.
Ukraine will have ZERO effect on what China does in Taiwan
Massive Chinese economic growth, Chinese GDP and military strength has everything to do with it.
If China becomes strong enough, they may not even have to fight a war to take over Taiwan.
Our FRiend SmokingJoe sounds to me more like a highly trained Russian propagandist than one of our own home grown neo-isolationists.
He seriously does argue for Russian, Chinese & who know what other expansionist wet dream of conquest?
Of course I have no idea what lunacies are taught in our schools and colleges these days.
Maybe that's where he learned such genuine anti-American ideas?
You are going to need to check boundaries outside of Europe since WW2
American leadership matters, a lot.
Matters to who?
To those picking our pockets constantly?
So now we are to surrender Taiwan too, without a fight?
Taiwan is NOT ours to surrender or not surrender to anybody.
Let Taiwan make their own decisions and decide their own fate. Its mot worth fighting a nuclear war over.
My goodness you truly do hate America, don't you?
You want to restore Russia and China to super-duper power status and just let them rule over anybody they want, right?
Chine WILL become a superpower, just from their eonomic might alone, not to mention having the biggest military on the planet.
Nobody can stop that.
No more so than Stalin's 1948-9 Berlin Blockaid was an act of war against Americans, Brits & French
Stalin and the Soviets had every right to occupy East Berlin and East Germany after WW2, same as the Americans and the Brits occupied West Germany and West Berlin..
Whether they allowed Americans to drive through East Germany or not was up to them.
Well...except that he didn't really “back down”.
He backed down alright, when he ordered the Soviet Warships not to attack the American warships and break the blockade.
Go read about the Cuban Missile Crises again, will ya?
The Taiwanese will make Ukrainians look like wimps.
They have prepared for a CCP invasion since around 1950.
And despite any "strategic ambiguity" we have long committed to help defend Taiwan, as will Japan & Korea, among others.
China will suffer far more than the US from their invasion of Taiwan.
For Americans it will mean getting millions of critical manufacturing jobs back from China.
The Chinese have a population of a massive 1.4 billion and by far the biggest military on the planet.
You think tiny Taiwan can stand Chinese military might?
“I’m not an isolationist. Ignoring the world would be a disaster for them and for us.”
SmokingJoe: "You are going to need to check boundaries outside of Europe since WW2.
Check closer and you'll see that almost every border change since WWII post-war resulted from negotiated settlements, not from aggressive dictatorships invading and annexing hapless victims.
Indeed, I can only think of one or two exceptions.
Can you think of others?
BJK: "American leadership matters, a lot."
SmokingJoe: "Matters to who?
To those picking our pockets constantly?"
Matters to the whole world, especially us.
Matters because "rules based order" is a much happier world than "Putin-Xi-Kim-Muhla ordered basics."
SmokingJoe: "Taiwan is NOT ours to surrender or not surrender to anybody.
Let Taiwan make their own decisions and decide their own fate.
Its mot worth fighting a nuclear war over."
The U.S. has been committed to Taiwan's defense since around 1950, though whether nuclear weapons will be used has always been a matter of "strategic ambiguity".
US naval power has kept Chi-Coms from doing in Taiwan what they did in Korea, Vietnam and India.
The absence of US backed powers will provoke Chi-Coms to attempt to expand all along China's borders.
We will not like the results.
SmokingJoe: "Chine WILL become a superpower, just from their eonomic might alone, not to mention having the biggest military on the planet.
Nobody can stop that."
China's economic power is 100% dependent on stolen technology, slave labor to produce vast exports, and imports of critical raw materials like oil and food.
If cut off from those, China's economy would quickly collapse.
Indeed, some very smart people say China's economy is already collapsing -- I don't know, but it does make sense that China's economy is more fragile than it seems.
China's new military appears to be a major & dangerous force, but so did madman Putin's "#2 in the world" before 2022.
As of now there's no telling how effective the PLA & PLAN will prove, or if China can sustain them in a long term war.
Regardless, the U.S. should respond with the kind of military we achieved under, for example, Pres. Reagan.
SmokingJoe: "Stalin and the Soviets had every right to occupy East Berlin and East Germany after WW2, same as the Americans and the Brits occupied West Germany and West Berlin..
Whether they allowed Americans to drive through East Germany or not was up to them."
No, all post-war borders & conditions were set by **agreement** among the allied powers.
Stalin had no legal right to unilaterally change the terms of agreement.
To do so, as in his 1948 Berlin Blockade, was an act of war against the western allies.
SmokingJoe: "He [USSR's Krushchev] backed down alright, when he ordered the Soviet Warships not to attack the American warships and break the blockade.
Go read about the Cuban Missile Crises again, will ya?"
I remember it.
Khrushchev's "back down" was strictly for public consumption.
What Krushchev did was effectively negotiate withdrawal of certain **operational** US missiles from Turkey, in exchange for his withdrawal of **planned** missiles from Cuba.
Khrushchev well understood that JFK was a glory hound and so Krushchev gave JFK some glory to sweeten the deal.
It was not what it seemed in public and the U.S. did not come out of it ahead.
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