> so much for the “NATO provocation” theory <
NATO did provoke Russia by moving eastward. I don’t think that can really be debated. And a check of my pre-invasion FR posts will show that I was quite sympathetic to Russia in that regard.
But here’s the thing. Any response to a provocation must be in proportion to the provocation. NATO did not invade Russia, or bomb any Russian cities. And neither did Ukraine.
Putin completely overreacted here. He is now killing civilians and terrorizing whole populations. He went way over the top. And so my opinion of him has changed since the invasion. I now consider him to be a war criminal.
“”NATO did provoke Russia by moving eastward. I don’t think that can really be debated. And a check of my pre-invasion FR posts will show that I was quite sympathetic to Russia in that regard.
But here’s the thing. Any response to a provocation must be in proportion to the provocation. NATO did not invade Russia, or bomb any Russian cities. And neither did Ukraine.””
“NATO did provoke Russia by moving eastward. I don’t think that can really be debated.”
Yes it can. The Baker assurances were (a) not part of any formal agreement and (b) were predicated on the USSR still existing. Russia was just as independent of the USSR as was Belarus and Ukraine.
The Cold War was against the USSR, not Russia. When the USSR disbanded,the Cold War ended.
If you do a handshake deal with a married couple that’s entirely dependent on them staying married, and they have an amicable divorce, are you still required to abide by it?
The CIS agreement acknowledged the complete and unconditional right of all the newly independent states to self-determination. If Russia had insisted on no NATO expansion, it would’ve been violating that element of an agreement it had sponsored.
Gorbachev himself said the USA and NATO fulfilled all their obligations in the written deal.
So NATO didn’t expand into Soviet territory against Soviet wishes, it welcomed the applications from free countries.
Regardless of what pap the Biden Admin. put out, there was no chance NATO was going to accept Ukraine. Putin damn well knew it, too.
NATO did provoke Russia by moving eastward. I don’t think that can really be debated.
Actually, that can be debated. Russia’s neighbors provoke Russia by simply existing and have done so for hundreds of years. Long before NATO appeared on the scene.
Take your Putinist doggerel and shove it.
Russia has no power or control over what the independent nations of Eastern Europe do.
Every one of them has ran as far from RuSSia as they can get FOR GOOD REASON.
And furthermore, you RuSSia fans don’t seem too concerned about RuSSia’s cooperative defense organization that it formed with much of central and western Asia.
RuSSia has intervened militarily and politically many times in the internal affairs of Kazakhstan, Armenia, Azerbaijan, etc.
Your “concerns” are selective.
LR — firstly, NATO did not “move eastwards” — Countries like Poland, Estonia, Romania etc. requested to join and did the reforms necessary to join NATO. Why? Because they were afraid of Russian invasion (and they were correct as 2008/2014/2022 shows)
secondly you are talking about “gut feelings” and how Russia suffered “three invasions from the west” - but have you looked into the history of that?
1. Napoleon — the Russians first attacked the French. Emperor Alexander I in the war of the 3rd coalition fought alongside the Austro-Hungarians and British against Napoleon and were defeated. The Russians were not innocents.
2. The invasion by Wilhelm II - again, Russia was far from innocent - it declared war on the Austro-Hungarians knowing that Imperial Germany would come in. And they attacked first at Tannenberg. The Russians thought they would use their artillery and numbers and win just as in the current war. And they lost
3. “one from Hitler” — perhaps you forget that the USSR was Nazi Germany’s ally from 1939? And they jointly invaded Poland? Russia was no innocent.
You then say “it is reasonable” to not want NATO on its borders.
Should Poland or Estonia or Lativa or Finland cite the presence of Russia on their borders as a threat and create “buffer zones”??
Or even more so - if the Russians WANTED their neighbours not to join NATO, they shouldn’t be constantly threatening invasions.