Posted on 09/14/2022 11:23:07 AM PDT by devere
Putin's commanders have begun quietly fleeing Crimea as they try to sell their homes and get their families back to Russia, Ukrainian spies have claimed.
Russian FSB agents and those working for the occupying government are also trying to get off the peninsula, which has been occupied by Kremlin forces since 2014.
Officials have been spooked by the rapid advance of Ukrainian forces across the north of the country in recent days, the military intelligence service added, amid reports that soldiers are withdrawing from Melitopol - just 70 miles away.
(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...
I’m screenshotting your “sage” view
Does anyone believe that Vlad is going to surrender? Russia will sue for peace? If things get dicey for the Russians, there is no doubt they will use nukes, what is our pentagon thinking that it would be playing this game?
Another interesting development:
The claim is, Putin’s Ukrainian-born envoy Dmitry Kozak secured a proposal from Zelenskyy’s side to abandon NATO membership, having been told by Putin that NATO expansion was the key driver toward an escalation. Reuters says it is now only publishing the story after having three separate people come forward to say that Putin rejected a deal that effectively gave him everything he was asking for - because of other reasons.
This new story also tallies with earlier news reports and statements from Ukraine. Had Ukraine received concrete security assurances from both Russia and NATO, it now looks like Putin could’ve walked away with everything he said he wanted EXCEPT transfer of the breakaway oblasts into Russia proper: NATO expansion would’ve been comprehensively ruled out, protection of the Russian language, Donetsk and Luhansk peoples would’ve been guaranteed through greater autonomy in the breakaway Oblasts, and some accounts even suggest Z had agreed to a denazification of the Ukrainian military and national guard.
Boris and the West have been accused of torpedoing a peace agreement repeatedly, but I didn’t know there were people inside Russia - actually inside the team doing the peace negotiations for Russia! who accuse Putin of torpedoing a deal that effectively gave him everything in his demands EXCEPT Russian ownership of the breakaway Oblasts.
If this is true, Putin threw out a deal where Ukraine practically offered him a concession on everything he’d asked for, except handover of Ukrainian sovereign territory to Russia and a license to invade again whenever it liked.
And, they claim Putin rejected that deal before Boris Johnson allegedly talked Zelenskyy out of it.
Peace negotiations meant one thing, how much of Ukraine was Russia going to own?
Ukraine has a chance to win this war and stay free.
It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
“what is our pentagon thinking that it would be playing this game?”
They see both Russia and China on the rise and closing in on parity (both economically and militarily) with us so decided now is the time to strike. Russia has way too much oil, gas, and other strategic resources which could allow them to overtake us in the future if not dealt with now. So they’ve decided the risk is worth it.
I grabbed a word, ‘positioning’ but here is how Trump worded it.
“I LISTENED TO HIM CONSTANTLY USING THE N WORD , THAT’S THE N WORD, AND HE’S CONSTANTLY USING IT. THE NUCLEAR WORD, AND WE NEVER TALK, WE SAY OH, HE’S A NUCLEAR POWER, BUT WE’RE A GREATER NUCLEAR POWER.
WE HAVE THE GREATEST SUBMARINES IN THE WORLD, MOST POWERFUL MACHINES EVER BUILT, MOST POWERFUL AND THEY GOT BUILT UNDER ME. MOST POWERFUL MACHINES EVER BUILT AND NOBODY KNOWS WHERE THEY ARE AND
YOU SHOULD SAY LOOK, IF YOU MENTION THAT WORD, ONE MORE TIME, WE’RE GOING TO SEND THEM OVER AND WE’LL BE COASTING BACK AND FORTH UP AND DOWN YOUR COAST. YOU CAN’T LET THIS TRAGEDY CONTINUE. YOU CAN’T LET THESE THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DIE. IT’S GOING TO BE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS AND MAYBE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE BY THE TIME IT ENDS.”
“Ukraine has a chance to win this war and stay free.”
If you believe that then you really don’t understand what is at stake here. Trust me Ukraine is never going to win, Russia will escalate to tactical nukes before that is allowed to happen.
“Exactly, if for some reason Russia seriously started losing this war, we will be seeing tactical nukes brought into play. And people are cheering for this? Have people lost their minds? I swear there’s some kind of mass craziness going on in the world.”
Who is cheering for the use of nukes, tactical or otherwise? The pro-Russia FReepers are. THEY seem to be the only ones who bring it up. A bit of a Russian set back? They’re going to use nukes!
Quit with the hyperbole and alarmism.
“Food stamps for the military were available before your time in service, during your time in service, and after your time in service.”
Perhaps McGee thinks it is a recent phenomenon. It isn’t.
It’s over.
All that’s left is for the tractors to go in and clean up abandoned junk.
Not even the Russians want to support Putin’s kleptocracy anymore.
At least Hitler used the public-serving term Lebensraum to excuse his plunder, pillage and genocide of nations. Putin just says ‘I’m taking your shit’ and invades. Yells “Nazis” over his shoulder to anyone who looks on.
It’s hardly hyperbole, even the neocon warmonger Henry Kissinger felt the obligation to come out against the current regime saying this could very well lead to nuclear war. Kissinger has always been a part of the deep state security apparatus, he wouldn’t think about coming out against them unless he thought that they were making a terrible mistake here.
You're completely delusional, Russia overtake the US? They are a corrupt gas station with nuclear weapons.
Even three U.S. states have larger GDPs than Russia: California ($3.1 trillion), Texas ($1.78 trillion) and New York ($1.7 trillion). Note that California has more than twice the GDP of Russia.
"Russia's Minuscule Economy: The Mouse That Roars"
https://www.ipi.org/ipi_issues/detail/russias-minuscule-economy-the-mouse-that-roars
“Russia isn’t going “back home” any more than the US would back off if an adversary set up shop in Mexico with a military presence.”
False analogy. You are assuming the US is IN Mexico, and in force.
“Ukrainians have been eating the dirt since they became independent.”
That implies that the Russians are eating dirt sandwiches for lunch.
Your perception of things is so far from reality, I won’t even bother trying to engage with you, it would be pointless.
“But, frankly, I don’t think it will happen. If Putin ordered a nuclear strike, his officers would remove him from power.”
I agree. Nukes are for use in response to an existential threat. In no way, shape, or form is Ukraine an existential threat to Russia. Unless one considers being embarrassed on the global stage an existential threat.
Russia has enough problems without forcing the world to deal with its nuking people and introducing nuclear weapons into conventional local wars and what is a Russian invasion.
None of it, apparently.
AFP reported Zelenskyy as saying he was no longer interested in making Ukraine a member of NATO, and was open to compromise over Donetsk and Luhansk - although he said, “What is important to me is how the people in those territories are going to live who want to be part of Ukraine, who in Ukraine will say that they want to have them in”
16th March: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/16/zelenskyy-says-russia-ukraine-peace-talks-more-realistic
Al-Jazeera reported that Zelenskyy said Ukraine was prepared to accept security guarantees from the West that stop short of its long-term goal of joining NATO.
“Ukraine is not a member of NATO. We understand that, we are not crazy. For years we have been hearing about the alleged open door, but we have also heard now that we cannot enter... If we cannot enter the open door, we must cooperate with communities that will help us and protect us, such as yours. And have reliable guarantees.”
Reliable guarantees from Russia as well as NATO, according to prior reports e.g. from last year’s NATO press conference (https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/opinions_190292.htm) which in effect set out why NATO accession wasn’t going to happen: any accession would be dependent on “a New Strategic Concept to be agreed at the NATO Summit in Madrid”, and “for Ukraine as a sovereign nation to decide its own path. And for the 30 NATO Allies to decide when Ukraine is ready to become a member.” The criteria on top of that unanimity included unspecified “NATO standards” that, despite all its cooperation and assistance, were still not satisfied by Ukraine prior to the SMO, and couldn’t be satisfied while Ukraine was in a state of war.
NATO membership was so dead in the water that the Ukrainian negotiators basically dismissed it as the easiest bit of a peace deal to guarantee: https://www.politico.eu/article/zelenskyy-aide-deal-on-nato-easy-to-agree-with-russia-but-giving-up-territory-a-no-go/.
By that point the deal Ukraine was pitching was far clearer: Moscow’s demands for “denazification” could be met, but full independence for the separatist territories was unacceptable because the Budapest Memorandum and other international agreements obliged Belarus, Russia, Ukraine, the USA and UK forbade it.
Ukraine’s negotiating position, therefore, was to offer Russia denazification, autonomous status for the breakaway Oblasts, and a withdrawal of NATO membership ambitions - in return for which, it demanded Russian troop withdrawal and cast-iron guarantees to reinforce or replace those from the first Budapest Memorandum that Russia had already violated and Belarus had ignored.
Russia’s negotiators seemed to think this was about as good a win as anyone could ask for. Nonetheless, Putin rejected it and bet the farm on a COMPLETE and UNCONDITIONAL surrender, Ukraine accepting an externally forced rearrangement of its borders, and Ukraine literally agreeing to leave itself undefended should Russia decide to invade it again.
“You’re completely delusional, Russia overtake the US? They are a corrupt gas station with nuclear weapons”
It’s all about the price of oil & gas, which is much higher now than a few years ago (and heading higher), and that trumps everything. GDP and energy expenditure is closely correlated. Russian debt to GDP is 18% verses the US debt to GDP at 125%. Do you understand what that means and the implications of that?
On top of that Russia has vast natural resources which are much in demand, meaning their economy was heading up while most others were heading down. The US certainly can read the writing on the wall and knew exactly where this was heading and decided to nip it in the bud. That and the Western democracies are all burdened with unpayable debt and would collapse unless te current monetary system is reserved. That is what this is about, the rest is just bs propaganda.
I think you place too much esteem and honor on Kissinger. He actually escalated the war in Vietnam (bombing Cambodia was his brainchild), and he ended up royally screwing the RVN, our ally, at the Paris Peace Talks in 1973.
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