Posted on 08/15/2022 6:22:15 AM PDT by JonPreston
Fail.
Russia has been building toward this war for 15 years at least. Easily since the Obama administration, but definitely since 2007/08.
Putin even went on the record in 2008 TWICE to clarify his intentions.
He said to GW Bush, “Ukraine is not even a country”.
And on 12th February 2008 immediately after a cordial resolution to a gas dispute via talks with Viktor Yushchenko, he turned to the question of NATO succession... “I am not only terrified to utter this, it is scary even to think that Russia … would have to target its offensive rocket systems at Ukraine.”
So while it is true that America poked the bear, fact is this bear was severely butt-hurt after poking itself with a hot poker... And was already threatening to erase Ukraine, a whole five years before Euromaidan.
And that’s when Ukraine was trying to be friendly. And in the same year, they kicked off the war in Georgia.
It’s possible for two things to be true. America poked the bear, true. It’s irrelevant becayse the bear was already poking itself to the point of picking fights with Ukraine even on the day Ukraine was doing positive deals with Russia - also true.
So, how do Ukrainians 'talk' with Putin who said Ukraine should not exist? Russian outrageous demands before invasion were Ukrainian neutrality, no army, Russian as a state language, recognize Crimea as Russian and Donbas and Luhansk as independent.
https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-will-stop-moment-if-ukraine-meets-2022-03-07/
Amazing how much earnest sound and fury on this forum has so little knowledge about the history of this
Lazy or simple no quest to know facts
Narratives mo better
Easier on malleable brains
It’s always been like that here honestly and sometimes the planets align fit them anyhow
Note this time
Very few freepers I know to be astute buy the western globalist line
A handful maybe
The idea that the Minsk Agreements failed because the Ukrainians failed to implement them is another piece of Russian propaganda. Ukraine actually passed two laws granting Donbas autonomy. The so-called republics balked because Ukraine insisted that the the accompanying referendum be held under Ukrainian administration rather than the military occupation of the Russian backed "republics." In any case, the relations with the central government in Kyiv and break-away republics was none of Russia's business and not a justification for invasion.
....no evidence to support...
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Take an unblinkered look at the facts available to everyone. When one of the so-called *winners* is alternately demanding more money from the US/EU/NATO while denigrating the citizens of (at least) the US, that is called a *clue*.
When the EU is not only unable to provide adequate energy for itself, but is fighting among its constituent nations over everything, that is also a *clue*.
When the US states it will send no more of specific weapon systems to Ukraine and it is also known that it will take 3+ years to replace what has already been sent, that is a further *clue*.
The international financial community keeps track of the conditions in every nation/region out of their own need to have accurate intel to safeguard their own finances. Every report shows Russia is barely dented by the sanctions (about a 4% decline), the EU is forced to shutter industry to keep the populace from freezing come winter and the US is busy arming every Federal agency against its own citizens in order to retain even a modicum of control after a years-long coup that is still in effect.
Here is the brutal truth from an average citizen: the information coming out of Russia aligns perfectly with what anyone can see for themselves. It also reads like a breath of fresh air compared to anything coming from from the US/EU. Even a great portion of India’s media reports independently of the Atlantic Alliance.
There is no excuse for the discrepancies in this age of satellite and cyber surveillance. People will align what they read with what they know/can ferret out for themselves. Decades of domestic propaganda have sensitized people everywhere to lies and gaslighting.
Sure, there is propaganda on both sides. We are all becoming more fluent in compare & contrast and can decide for ourselves what is and is not true.
Ukraine, the EU and the US are losing and, except for the fallout on the citizens of all of those nations, which is tragic, that may not be a bad thing.
YMMV
Russia Putin does not know when to quit and win the peace.
Neither do the war mongering idiots in DC
I said SOMETIMES.
The parliament of Ukraine approved a law on "special status" for Donbas on 17 March, as specified by Minsk II. Later, in 2019, Ukraine's parliament voted to extend regulations giving limited self-rule to separatist-controlled eastern regions, a prerequisite for a deal to settle the five-year conflict there. The law was immediately criticized by Ukrainian politicians, separatist leaders, and the Russian government. Radical Party leader Oleh Lyashko said that the law was "a vote for de facto recognition of the Russian occupation in Donbas". Vice-parliamentary speaker Andriy Parubiy said that law was "not for Putin or the occupiers", but to show Europe that Ukraine was willing to adhere to Minsk II. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said that the law was a "sharp departure from the Minsk agreements" because it demanded local elections under Ukrainian jurisdiction.
Representatives of the LPR and DPR said that the law was a "one-sided" modification of Minsk II, and that the agreement had been rendered void by this modification. DPR leader Alexander Zakharchenko said that any change to Minsk II that had not been mutually agreed upon was "legally void", and that "nothing that had been agreed upon in Minsk has been carried out". He added that the DPR "must occupy all of the cities in which the referendum took place, and then politically cooperate [with Ukraine] as equal partners"
Contrast that with article 12 in the agreement:
Based on the Law of Ukraine "On temporary Order of Local Self-Governance in Particular Districts of Donetsk and Luhansk Oblasts", questions related to local elections will be discussed and agreed upon with representatives of particular districts of Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts in the framework of the Trilateral Contact Group. Elections will be held in accordance with relevant OSCE standards and monitored by OSCE/ODIHR.
In any case, the relations with the central government in Kyiv and break-away republics was none of Russia's business and not a justification for invasion.
Full text of the Minsk agreement Translation of Russian document produced after 16 hours of talks
After 16 hours of talks in the Belarusian capital Minsk the leaders of Germany, France, Ukraine and Russia agreed to a ceasefire. The ‘following is the official English version of the agreement.
In July 2021 Putin wrote a long article On the Historical Unity of Russians and Ukrainians“that seems to have been ignored by the MSM and the Department of State. This article should have set off alarm bells and a signal that immediate diplomatic action was required to avert a kinetic war. From the article:
Russia has done everything to stop fratricide. The Minsk agreements aimed at a peaceful settlement of the conflict in Donbas have been concluded. I am convinced that they still have no alternative. In any case, no one has withdrawn their signatures from the Minsk Package of Measures or from the relevant statements by the leaders of the Normandy format countries. No one has initiated a review of the United Nations Security Council resolution of 17 February 2015.
During official negotiations, especially after being reined in by Western partners, Ukraine's representatives regularly declare their ”full adherence“ to the Minsk agreements, but are in fact guided by a position of ”unacceptability“. They do not intend to seriously discuss either the special status of Donbas or safeguards for the people living there. They prefer to exploit the image of the ”victim of external aggression“ and peddle Russophobia. They arrange bloody provocations in Donbas. In short, they attract the attention of external patrons and masters by all means.
Today, these words may be perceived by some people with hostility. They can be interpreted in many possible ways. Yet, many people will hear me. And I will say one thing – Russia has never been and will never be ”anti-Ukraine“. And what Ukraine will be – it is up to its citizens to decide.
Neither do the war mongering idiots in DC
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They don’t want peace. No churn-&-grab grifting available in peacetime.
https://reliefweb.int/report/ukraine/tentative-first-look-options-peace-operations-ukraine
20,000 yes Polish troops, for “ Peace keeping” ( ocuppation). The article a few months old, but it is still being discussed- now more than ever as Vlad has gained much more territory since May and the Ukies demise is getting closer.
Ukraine to be carved up post war?
You think that just because the CIA is using billions of dollars, and thousands of agents and few weapons, that its somehow more moral than a tank. We have used as many weapons. They are often sold to other countries. Or they are used by Ukrainians. What our CIA does, is every bit as harmful and immoral as the Russian tanks. We are corrupting their society from within. And now we are getting a dose of our own medicine. The CIA is every bit as bad as the FBI. Both should be destroyed. They are illegal and immoral.
Russia invaded an independent Ukraine causing 13 million refugees with massive widespread devastation. Somehow in you're mind that equates to the US using agents. Okay
Our CIA invaded Ukraine first. They did not use a tank. They worked like a mafia. They corrupted officials. They bought off anyone with influence. They organized a coup d’etat.
When Russia put missiles in Cuba we, in Cuba acted the same as Russia in Ukraine.
We do not have the moral high ground here. We are not in the right. We are simply screwing with another country. And many of that country do not want us there. We are not elected. We were invaders.
Ron Paul?? Ron is a nitwit and so are the people who listen to his rantings, most of which are Alex Jones-esque nonsense.
he’s actually begging Europe to keep propping up Putler’s economy with gas purchases.
Sickest people I’ve ever seen...
Kiev is relatively untouched considering posters like you consider Russia fully committed ala Grozny
Power still on last I looked
In fact Ukraine is exporting electricity right now
https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/status/1554150530255126530?s=21
Nice try
You guys are either truly stupid or willfully gullible for your daily mail fabrications to suit your narrative you live for devoid of truth
Was Russia mean to your gg grandparents before they came here toting Fabian baggage ?
It’s nonsensical your position since you post here
We don’t expect you to be as uninformed as the average fat nation sponge
Conservatism is about facts
And you Z bots don’t have much if any at least not about this issue
We’ll assume you do better on other topics of interest
You're naive if you think BOTH sides did not try to influence Ukraine. The problem for Russia is that Ukrainians travel, both to Russia and the EU and clearly see the better standard of living in the EU. Talk about coup is moronic. Ukrainians overwhelmingly wanted to be part of the EU, not some asian Russian-Bananastan economic trading zone.
Truth? Putin invaded an independent sovereign country for territorial gain, causing 13 million refugees and widespread devastation.
Ukraine was within the Soviet block. Of course Russians lived there. The population speaks both Russian and some forms of Ukrainian depending on the region. The US CIA has been trying to separate Ukraine from Russia. Between the CIA and Russian army they have torn Ukraine’s government apart. Ukraine is now little better than 1947 Germany. The CIA are not the good guys. The Russians are not the good guys. The Ukrainian national government are not the good guys. Its like three mafia family leaders fighting over a neighborhood to control. Our CIA has run a muck. They hold no moral high ground here. And they are only American, in that we fund them. But in every other way they are an international illegal gang.
“ At least you admit that much. No go check on what NATO was doing with Ukraine prior to Feb 24th.”
Absolutely nothing regarding their entry to NATO.
They did send some arms due to the invasion of Crimea and the Russian expansion into that nation prior to invasion. Once again, started by Russia.
You make my point.
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