Russia’s Grave Miscalculation: Ukrainians Would Collaborate

NYT ^ | 5/7/22 | Andrew E. Kramer

[lump in the melting pot]

The solicitation to commit treason came to Oleksandr Vilkul on the second day of the war, in a phone call from an old colleague.

Mr. Vilkul, the scion of a powerful political family in southeastern Ukraine that was long seen as harboring pro-Russian views, took the call as Russian troops were advancing to within a few miles of his hometown, Kryvyi Rih.

“He said, ‘Oleksandr Yurivich, you are looking at the map, you see the situation is predetermined,’” Mr. Vilkul said, recalling the conversation with a fellow minister in a former, pro-Russian Ukrainian government.

“Sign an agreement of friendship, cooperation and defense with Russia and they will have good relations with you,” the former colleague said. “You will be a big person in the new Ukraine.”

The offer failed spectacularly. Once war had begun, Mr. Vilkul said, the gray area seeped out of Ukrainian politics for him. Missiles striking his hometown made the choice obvious: He would fight back.

“I responded with profanity,” Mr. Vilkul said in an interview.

[katana]

Except that that was a civil war, while this is a war between two sovereign nations.

Oooooh, boy! You've started it now! I can hear the rebel yells starting on the other side of them hills. Inveterate Confederates are an invasive species on this site.

[oldvirginian]

WOOOOOOOOOooooooooohhh!!

Someone call for an Inveterate Confederate?
Am I the first!??
Please tell me I’m the first!!

[Kevmo]

Sounds like a threat.
***To a wuss, maybe. Are you a wuss?

[BiteYourSelf]

That, unfortunately,may be true.🙄

[alexander_busek]

That all depended on who you asked. To the North, it was a civil war (or rebellion more likely), to the South, they had declared their independence and were a sovereign state as much as the 13 colonies were sovereign after declaring independence from Britain.

When a separatist region WINS the civil war - generally corroborated afterwards by being recognized by other sovereign states - then it is a sovereign nation.

Regards,

[alexander_busek]

the Russians are intervening in a civil war.

I once intervened in a sort of "civil war."

It was a minor domestic dispute between a husband and wife.

Some raised voices, a few harsh words - and I think that a tea cup may even have been hurled.

I intervened by cold-cocking the husband, tying up the children so they could watch, and then raping the wife.

Yes, I'm Russian. It's what we do.

Anyway, the neighbors complained, so I threatened to set the entire town on fire. That should quiet them down!

Anyway, I'm celebrating a "Victory over Domestic Violence" party this coming May 8th - Wanna come?

Regards,

[daniel1212]

“We are part of something bright,” he said of Ukraine. “It is here, with us, in our group. And they have nothing to offer.”

"This. I was in Poland in the early 90s, and have spent a lot of time there since and was in Ukraine in 2016. Most Americans cannot imagine the cultural pull Europe and the US have on these people. Whatever our problems are (and they are significant), integration with the West means the possibility of freedom and a "normal" life, whereas being a part of Russia is a simply a return to a gangster state."

And,

“Before the war, we had ties to Russia,” said Serhiy Zhyhalov, 36, a steel mill engineer, referring to familial, linguistic and cultural bonds. But no longer, he said. “No one has any doubts that Russia attacked us.”

Not complicated, nor should understanding that fear of opposing Putin due to nukes plays into his hand, for "peace in our time" simply delays conflict, yet Ukraine, with its great potential, has problems that are many. Trump understood the need for a stronger NATO and US military, but not a Wokelitary.

[Frank_Symptoms]

50,000 rubles has been deposited in your account, comrade.

Spasiba

[Mr. K]

Do you have your kneepads ready for when you kiss Biden’s a$$?

[MercyFlush]

Why would you feel threatened by a visit from the FBI? If you’ve done nothing wrong then why feel threatened by the nice people in the turnout jackets?

[katana]

Am I the first!?? Please tell me I’m the first!!

Yep, so far, Y'all.

[oldvirginian]

🎉🥇🎯🃏

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

Russian Human Trafficking:

1- The Russian Connection: How Russia Became a Leader in the
World’s Human Trafficking MarketWorld’s Human Trafficking M
https://stars.library.ucf.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=6299&context=etd

2- Human Trafficking: The Secret to Putin’s Economy
25.Nov.2020
https://hir.harvard.edu/putin-and-human-trafficking/

3- The War Against Human Trafficking in Russia
https://www.borgenmagazine.com/war-human-trafficking-in-russia/

4- 2019 Trafficking in Persons Report: Russia
https://www.state.gov/reports/2019-trafficking-in-persons-report-2/russia/
“The Government of Russia does not fully meet the minimum standards for the elimination of trafficking and is not making significant efforts to do so”

5-’Worst Human Traffickers’ Include Russia, Belarus, Iran, Turkmenistan
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-belarus-iran-turkmenistan-human-traffickers-report/29326302.html

6- WHEN THE GOVERNMENT IS THE TRAFFICKER: STATE-SPONSORED TRAFFICKING IN PERSONS:
The 2021 Trafficking in Persons Report includes the following 11 governments with a documented “policy or pattern” of human trafficking, trafficking in government-funded programs, forced labor in government-affiliated medical services or other sectors, sexual slavery in government camps, or the employment or recruitment of child soldiers:
Afghanistan
Burma
China
Cuba
Eritrea
Korea, North
Iran
RUSSIA [RANKS TIER 3]
South Sudan
Syria
Turkmenista

[TennTuxedo]

You might want to do some digging. It is the Ukraine who heads up everything that you accuse Russia of doing.

Russi is cleaning things up for the world, not just the true MAGA crowd.

[Boogieman]

Well, that also depends. The South seceded (as whole states, not “separatist regions”) and no war immediately started, so at least for a time, though the North disagreed, they were effectively ruling themselves and at peace with the rest of the US, and they were recognized by at least some countries, because they obtained foreign allies.

And prior to the “Civil War” there was no established legal doctrine that states, who had voluntarily entered into a union as sovereign states, could not voluntarily leave the union as sovereign states. Only the resolution of the war resulted in a settlement of that question for practical purposes.

[UMCRevMom@aol.com]

No.

I see no positive evidence of Putin’s governing actions. i.e. The Russian Connection in Human Trafficking:

However, I can deeply APPRECIATE & RESPECT the Russian citizens SABOTAGING Putin’s ‘war machine’:

1. FKP Perm Powder Plant that produces materials used in specific Russian military ordinances;
2. fires at two oil depots in Bryansk;
3. thousands attend anti-war protests across Russia;
4, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov refuses to provide an update to relatives of missing conscripts who was not supposed to take part in hostilities.

[slowhandluke]

Nor did I miss where Russia agreed to support Donetsk People's Republic and Lubansk People's Republic.

Why am I saying civil war? Because Kiev/Ukraine shelled Donetsk for 8 years when everybody assumed Donetsk was part of Ukraine.

[MercyFlush]

“Why am I saying civil war? Because Kiev/Ukraine shelled Donetsk for 8 years when everybody assumed Donetsk was part of Ukraine.”

It was a civil war? Then why were the Russians repeatedly shooting at the Ukrainians between 2014 and 2022?

https://glasnostgone.org/2019/07/13/russian-artillery-filmed-shelling-ukraine-territory/

https://www.unian.info/war/10954748-russian-occupation-forces-17-times-shell-ukrainian-troops-in-donbas.html

Also, the Russians had no qualms about shelling Donetsk...

https://empr.media/video/war-in-ukraine/russian-armed-forces-shelling-donetsk-ukraine-2/

https://empr.media/video/war-in-ukraine/russian-armed-forces-shelling-donetsk-in-ukraine/